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[00:00:00] Rob: Last week we talked about getting speaking engagements as a way to show yourself as a thought leader in your specific industry. So this week we’re talking about how to land speaking engagements at conferences, and we’re gonna hit on three tips. The first one is submitting early. When you think about most conferences, and this does vary a little bit by the size of the conference, but on average, They are booking their speakers 45 to 60 days before the actual conference, cuz they want to have their pictures, their names, their topics, and descriptions up on their website so that people can start to look through that and they can push more participant registration.

[00:00:36] So that means before that 45 to 60 day mark, one to three months, they’re accepting as submissions for those speaking engagements. One thing to consider if I just completed a conference this year and I really enjoyed it and I wanna speak at it next year, about six months prior to the date that I’d assume it’ll be next year.

[00:00:56] So if it’s August in 2022, it’ll probably be in August in 2023. Six months before that start to check their website. See when it opens up for submissions, cuz they do update it and they generally keep the same domain. And that is the best way to get yourself that early access and be one of the first to submit now, early submission doesn’t guarantee that you’re going to get a speaking engagement, but it definitely improves your odds.

[00:01:20] think of the person or the people I should say, who have to go through all of these speaking engagements after they’ve reviewed hundreds and hundreds of submissions. If you’re the last one of, two or 3000, they may have never gotten to yours because there were so many good ones that they selected them all prior to that. So submit early and submit often

[00:01:39] Brittany: your tips are always so good. I do love that. I’m the last minute person and I think you hate that about me sometimes, but, I love you, but planning. Yes. I actually am a good planner, but sometimes I just, especially speaking stuff, me. I tried to avoid it. Let’s say

[00:01:53] Rob: honest. That’s yeah. I was gonna say that’s a different issue. That’s avoidance.

[00:01:56] Brittany: Yes. So speaking engagements are scary for me. I’m working on this, but I will say super exciting. We have a couple coming up, which is awesome, but choosing our topic was. It was one of those things where we wanted it to be fun and also very informational.

[00:02:11] I think that we want it to be different than others that we’ve seen, which I think that’s a good way to start, looking at it. And that brings me to my next tip is when you submit something and maybe you were rejected from a conference, making sure that you review what was accepted and adjusting your pitches from there.

[00:02:28] I do think that we participated in a lot of classes and things like that in the last podcast. conference that we went to, and we actually learned a lot about what it took to submit and what kind of topics they were looking for. And also the titles that were catchy and, the value that they added.

[00:02:46] Brittany: I think that’s one of our big things, is making sure that we add value to someone instead of just like giving them this pitch that really was. Okay. so what was the point of that? cool. I’m not really sure why I attended that, but I think that’s one of our big focuses when we do pitch ourselves, is that making sure that we pitch something that adds value to people, which is super important, but making sure that you also are studying how people are being selected and the topics that they’re looking for.

[00:03:11] Rob: Definitely. And also, don’t get discouraged just because you submitted say last year and you didn’t get accepted. Doesn’t mean you won’t get accepted the following year. Again. Maybe you submitted too late or your topic wasn’t really on target to Brittany’s point. Study those titles, those descriptions that you saw in people’s accepted topics and see how you can tweak what you are submitting for that, because every conference has a different group of people that they’re trying to get to attend.

[00:03:40] some people are looking for business, professionals, some are looking for those indie podcasters. These people all have very different interests. They have different likes. So not every conference, whether, they’re all in the same vertical. If they were all about podcasting, they are not all going to want the exact same presentations.

[00:03:58] Rob: Even if it’s from the same presenters, they’re still gonna want you to mix it up and tailor it to their audience. .

[00:04:03] Brittany: Yeah, I think that’s actually a really important point because I will tell you going to podcast movement and going to Podfest not the same, you’re not looking for the same thing. And podcast was actually very adverse, like there was so much diversity in the topics that they had over 300 speakers, which I was like, oh my gosh, there’s something here for everyone.

[00:04:21] Rob: that’s an insane amount of speakers. I would probably feel a little overwhelmed and disappointed cuz I’d be like, there’s no way to actually get to every session I want to go to.

[00:04:30] Brittany: Yes. But they did do the sessions where they do the five minute presentations. So I thought that was really cool.

[00:04:35] I really like that. Yeah, it was very cool. So you got through a lot of speakers and you learned a lot.

[00:04:40] Rob: And one thing I think you did that was really smart at pod Fest this year is you volunteered. So I don’t think a lot of people think to do that. And it’s a great way to meet conference staff. And they’re not necessarily on the scout then to find speakers, making connections and networking is always a way to get your foot in the door in the future. Cuz you never know. Who has the authority or who has that decision making power to elevate your pitch to the next level?

[00:05:09] Brittany: Yes, that was actually a really good experience for me. And I will say. if you’re going to volunteer, be good, be good at what you do. Don’t be a pain in the butt. there were some people that did volunteer and they made things a lot harder and they weren’t helpful.

[00:05:23] So making sure that if you are volunteering and you are trying to be noticed by people that you’re helpful, that you’re engaging with people, you’re nice to people you’re solving problems. You’re not making problems. There was some of the volunteers that created a. Havoc. And it was like, why are you here?

[00:05:40] You are not helpful. You’re making the conference miserable for people. So I think that’s one takeaway that I have from that experience is of making sure that you’re in there to help. And that you are presenting yourself in a way that is valuable, because if you want them to notice you and pick you for speaking engagements, they’re not gonna pick the person that was a pain. I’m just saying.[

[00:06:00] Rob: Yeah, that’s fair. Nobody wants the Karen of volunteers. No best anybody named Karen, but just saying

[00:06:07] Brittany: no one wants the Karen anywhere in their life. I’m just saying, and yeah, especially at a conference. Absolutely not. Cuz they want you to volunteer to help them not to make their life harder.

[00:06:16] Rob: Yes. They don’t wanna manage fair point. No. So

[00:06:18] Brittany: even if they smile at and I will tell you when I would go into volunteer, people were like, yay, Brittany. I was like, I’m doing something good. So be that person.

[00:06:27] Rob: Yeah, exactly. Even if you don’t have a customer service background, which we both do, learn how to fake it.

[00:06:32] Brittany: Yes, absolutely. like in our previous episode you can YouTube how to be a good person. Figure it out. It’s good.

Rob: God, you can probably TikTok it now, so you can do it in three minutes or less. Maybe that’s the TikTok channel will start how to be a nice person in three minutes or less.

[00:06:48] Brittany: I like it. I feel like the world needs it, but that’s a topic for another day. All right.

Rob: So what would be your main tip for somebody? If they were trying to get a speaking engagement in this upcoming podcast conference season?

[00:06:58] Brittany: For me. I think that adding value is the biggest one. I think there’s a lot of fluff out there in this world. So making sure that you’re adding value and of course having a catchy title does not hurt you at all. , that would be my big recommendation. And I think that’s also a personal thing because I hate attending something that I feel like really wasted my time.

[00:07:17] Rob: Absolutely. great suggestion. And I would throw on there as you’re submitting all of these topics, these ideas keep a spreadsheet for yourself. I can tell you one thing, I’ve made a mistake. When you go to a lot of the conference websites, they obviously have the form for you to input it on their site. once you hit submit, you never really can see your content again.

[00:07:37] And unless you have a photographic memory, which I do not, if you saw my desk gets covered in post-its because. I am not a memory person. I need notes. I can attest

[00:07:46] Brittany: to this. Yes. It’s like podcast festival over there

[00:07:48] Rob: seriously, but I recycle them. Don’t worry. So I’m a good person. Tik Tok, take notes for yourself, whether it’s in, in Excel on post it, make sure you just save that information cuz you can also use it later. If [00:08:00] things don’t get accepted to our point tweak it might fit somewhere else or a different conference.

[00:08:05] Brittany: Yeah, absolutely. So I think that these are really good tips for landing a conference gig. So we’re gonna wrap here. Thank you so much for tuning in. Please listen, like and follow the podcast and we’ll see you guys next time.

[00:00:00] Brittany: We’re just gonna jump right in here today and talk about how you become a thought leader. And I think that this is something that has been really interesting to watch evolve over time, because there are so many different. Media places that you can actually be an expert on that. I think we’re seeing more people and more niches become experts, which has been interesting to see evolve over the last couple years.

[00:00:21] Rob: Absolutely. And I think we’re still in the infancy, cuz I think we went from a space where you had these more academic type experts and these CEO level professionals who were highly educated or had spent. Decades in a role to now anybody can really elevate themselves through effort and work.

[00:00:43] Brittany: Absolutely. And I think social media and different avenues have made it more accessible to a lot more people, which I think it makes things more interesting to be honest. So first of all, one of the things that you can do to become a thought leader is to develop expertise in your field. So you [00:01:00] can’t just go in and be like, I am an expert in this and expect people to just be like, okay, we’ll have you on.

[00:01:07] Or you can be on our podcast. you seem like you’re a cool person. That’s not how that works. You actually have to make sure that you develop, a backstory and some history in whatever you’re talking about. So just making sure that. you are an expert before you reach out and ask to be on someone’s show and you don’t have to be an expert in every area.

[00:01:28] I think that’s the beauty, especially of podcasting. There are so many different niches in podcasting that you could really be an expert in a hobby that you have. So I think that’s one recommendation is to develop the expertise in your field or your hobby, depending on what you’re doing.

[00:01:44] Rob: And think of ways you can do that. So a really easy way. A lot of us are probably already doing it, even if we’re not thinking we’re doing it is writing blogs. So as you’re putting blogs out there, let’s say you are writing about podcasting. We write about that all the time, and we write [00:02:00] about all kinds of small business things.

[00:02:01] As you’re doing research on those topics, as you’re digging in and you’re getting information from sources. That’s how you’re building your knowledge base and then continuing to add to your own expertise. And then that gives you that validity to have that conversation with other podcasters who might be new to this space. And they’re looking for somebody to lead the way. 

[00:02:21] Brittany: Yeah, absolutely. Blogs are a great way to also just be able to get noticed, Because they come up when you Google search, they come up. when people are searching for something specific, like on Pinterest, depending on what you’re doing.

[00:02:32] So I think that’s a really good advice. I think the other thing is speaking at events, and I think that’s a big thing because there are so many different types of events that you can speak at that there’s a lot of opportunity out there for you to speak in something that you’re an expert in. And if you’re passionate about it, People are more likely to want to book you.

[00:02:50] And so I think just making sure that you are, applying for speaking events and going into detail on the topics that you would discuss, and also just making sure that you,list out [00:03:00] specific things that people could learn from you in that topic. 

[00:03:02] Rob: Absolutely. And if you’re maybe not as comfortable with speaking in front of large crowds, or you don’t want to do the online conference circuit.

[00:03:10] That could be the reason for you to start a podcast. If you don’t already have one it’s well, I won’t say easy, cuz it’s not necessarily easy. Podcasts are a lot of work you have lots to do, but podcasts are a great way to communicate with an audience that you’re not necessarily visually in front of. So it does remove that certain level of stress you can do it really, in the privacy of your office, in your studio, in your home.

[00:03:34] and still get that message out there. So you’re still getting your expertise out there and you can lean on those things that you’ve done in the past. So you could be utilizing those blogs that you created that could be content for your initial podcast, or maybe vice versa as you create podcast content, maybe your blogging about it to drive conversation with people via your website or your social channels.

[00:03:54] Brittany: Yeah, absolutely. And I think also. People tend to really get hyper focused on [00:04:00] the video portion too. I think we’ve talked to a couple of different vendors that are creating stuff for video. And one of the things is that people are always camera ready. So a lot of people, I know that we are living in the influencer space.

[00:04:11] I get it. But there are people that don’t want to be on camera. They really like just the audio version of things. So a podcast is so important, especially if you don’t wanna do video. and they’re very effective. So I think that’s a great idea. And I think another way that you can really become like a thought leader and an expert is asking for testimonials from your clients and people that you’ve worked with.

[00:04:31] I think that adds a lot of credibility into what you’re doing and it helps you really establish. , people really thinking that you’re an expert and knowing that you do follow through on what you say you’re going to do, and that you have expertise in that field and your clients feel that you are successful.

[00:04:46] So I do think that’s a big thing that you can really work towards and, a lot of companies send out surveys things like that. So being able to utilize that information in a very positive way to really put it out there, that you are an expert. 

[00:04:58] Rob: And don’t be afraid to [00:05:00] ask for the testimonial, especially if you did a really great job with a client, whatever the job was, they’re usually very happy to give you that positive recommendation and feedback, but also keep in mind, you might have to ask them two or three times cuz they also have busy careers and busy lives.

[00:05:14] So it doesn’t always go to the top of their plate. 

[00:05:16] Brittany: Absolutely and make sure that the product is finished before you ask for that. kinda awkward if ask for enroll project, just saying

[00:05:23] Rob: , yeah. If you’re in the middle of the project or something’s overdue, maybe wait just a little bit before you ask for that.

[00:05:29] Brittany: Yeah, absolutely. But always provide a good experience. I think that’s something else that, is just good. Customer service always helps. 

[00:05:35] Rob: Definitely. And then something that maybe you’ve thought about, or maybe haven’t considered is writing a book. So there obviously are a million types of self-help self-education books out there.

[00:05:49] There are new ones coming out every day. And when we say write a book, this can also be something where you can consider self-publishing. So you don’t have to create a book, pitch it to random [00:06:00] house and hope to get published with a, seven figure book deal, which, if you can get that good for you, definitely do that.

[00:06:06] But if you can put together a book that has. Value in it that people can take and educate themselves again, I’ll pick on podcasting. If you can teach a newbie, podcaster, how to launch their podcast, how to market it, how to find their hosting, how to do the basics and how to start to grow their audience and start to make some revenue off of that,that has a lot of value.

[00:06:29] And it also gives you the ability to reference your book. So as you go to conferences or you have a speaking engagement, you can literally. Tell people, you wrote the book on it because now you have, so it’s something you can put your name on it, your face on it, and literally have a bound expertise and it’ll be all over Amazon because it is very easy to get yourself into the Amazon shops these days.

[00:06:52] And they are a great way to market your products. 

[00:06:55] Brittany: Absolutely. And I’m always surprised by the amount of people that have written books. and I [00:07:00] don’t know how you’re gonna feel about me saying this, but I know that you’ve written three books back when you were a little bit younger, a little more spry.

[00:07:05] Rob: Yeah. Yeah. A little less wrinkly 

[00:07:07] Brittany: yes. But you were able to get self-published and I think it’s like an incredible thing and people really do look at people that write books and think, oh my gosh, like they know what they’re talking about. 

[00:07:16] Rob: yes. It also tells people you have the dedication to sit in front of a laptop by yourself for hour after hour.

[00:07:23] yep. I did my books and they’re much more nerdy. They have nothing to do with podcasting. It’s all sci-fi that’s for a different episode, when maybe we’ll do a behind the scenes episode and release some of our like biggest fears and nightmares. I think that would be amazing, cuz I would love to hear more about how that book writing process was.

[00:07:40] Brittany: We were much younger when you wrote your books, but I think it’s also a very cool experience to go through and also, be able to help other people write books. I think that’s of cool too. I’ve seen people be able to do that. That’s another topic as well, but I think that these are great ways to become a thought leader in your field and hopefully it was helpful.

[00:07:57] Do you have any final thoughts on this one? 

[00:07:58] Rob: I think you just have to [00:08:00] get out there and start a lot of us. It’s almost like finding a new career. It’s very scary and you can panic and you feel like there’s just no one direction to get started. So these are all just some tips to start to take that first step.

[00:08:14] So maybe start with something easy, like doing some blogging. Making sure you have that up on your website, make sure it’s out on your social channels and then progress into some of the more complex things like a podcast. If you don’t have one and then, you know what, jump in feet first,write the book and be the expert.

[00:08:30] Brittany: Yeah, I love that. And I will say in this type of environment, we have access to more information than we ever have. So you can get on YouTube, rumble, any of those, and you can learn almost anything. So I think also just if you’re not quite an expert, yet there’s plenty of resources out there to really help you.

[00:08:46] So that’s my final thought on this topic, and we’re gonna wrap here, so thank you so much for tuning in. Please listen, likeand follow the podcast and we’ll see you guys next time.

[00:00:00] Brittany: Today we’re just gonna jump right in and we are gonna talk about how to do email newsletters for your podcast and why this is so important. I think it’s great when you are building a listener group and you’re creating an audience for your podcast, but sometimes when you’re doing things on social media and things like that, you aren’t getting enough content out there for your audience to stay engaged. Sometimes it’s just not enough for them to really bite on. So getting a newsletter out there is a really good idea. 

[00:00:28] Rob: Definitely. It’s also another medium to your point. You’ve got your audience that likes social, that also, depending on the networks you’re utilizing Facebook, TikTok, LinkedIn, et cetera.

[00:00:39] They each address different age groups where. Email to a degree, we’re all forced to use it, whether we want to or not, because work, et cetera. So you’ve got a larger group of people that are utilizing email. So whether it’s their personal or work email, hopefully you’ve got their personal email.

[00:00:59] You’ve got a better chance of getting into their inbox. So now it’s really about what’s the content you’re providing so that they’re opening the message and not marking you a spam. 

[00:01:09] Brittany: Yeah. I think that’s the most important thing is making sure that the content is valuable enough that they aren’t marking you as spam and that, they find value in it just like your podcast.

[00:01:17] So let’s talk about how to have an effective podcast, newsletter. I think one of the big things is making sure you have a opt in form. I think people don’t think about that. as far as, making sure. all the protocols are followed, right? Because we’re like, oh, email list they just seem second nature.

[00:01:33] Brittany: So I don’t think people think about, there are still rules when you have an email list and you need to make sure that you have that opt-in feature on there. Otherwise you can get in trouble.

[00:01:41] Rob: This would be a great time to go back and listen to that compliance episode we had when we interviewed with Tom Fox. But, I digress. Yeah. great point. And your optin form. There’s a lot to consider there as well. From what information you wanna collect to what you need to collect and how you’re presenting it.

[00:01:59] So if we’re talking about an email list at a minimum, and we’re talking UI here, UX, so user interface, and that’s what people are seeing on your website at a minimum. You need an email filled, which I wanna say is obvious, but we build a lot of websites and you’d be surprised how many people don’t think about that.

[00:02:15] But also think about personalization. So if you send somebody an email and I can put your name in the email in the subject line, or, hi Brittany, hi, Rob. Those things go a long way to make your message stand out. So that means you need a name, field, or a first name field. And then you have to decide, are you going to make it required or not required at a minimum email field has to be required cause you need to collect it.

[00:02:42] The name field, you might want to collect it passively, which gives people the option to not input it and gives you a higher probability of getting submissions. And this is where my nerdy marketing tech background comes. And then the last piece there. And this is if you wanna get really sophisticated and you are planning to build out a really robust newsletter program, give people the option to select the type of information they want.

[00:03:08] So this would be like a check box. So say it’s news or podcast updates. So you might not be ready to go to that extreme yet, but you might want to think down the road as your podcast grows or your company grows. If you get to the point where you could be sending out multiple newsletters, if you have some of that early segmentation, it saved you from asking people later and you’ve got it to work with in the future.

[00:03:32] Brittany: Yeah. And I also think it helps you plan out your content accordingly. If you don’t have anyone that wants news and that’s what you’re putting out, not really helpful, 

[00:03:39] Rob: Yeah, absolutely. I think what we see a lot of organizations and companies doing, we’ve experienced this where they feel like the segmentation is too much to address.

[00:03:48] So everybody gets a catchall and everybody gets everything. And at first that might not be a problem, especially if it’s a monthly newsletter and you’re just sending out the occasional thing. But if you grow and say, you’re sending out 5, 6, 7, 10 emails a month. Everybody doesn’t want everything. So you need to learn who the people are in your audience, what they want.

[00:04:10] And the earlier you start asking them those questions. And if you can do it in that passive way, it just states you time headache and opt outs. Cuz once they opt out, they’re more or less gone forever because technically I have seen people do this. You are not supposed to email people who opt out even to ask them to reengage.

[00:04:28] That’s a big no-no. You can get yourself in trouble with compliance rules. That’s where stuff like G, D R P if you’re in Europe and other countries comes into play. So things to think about, you don’t wanna get yourself fined. 

[00:04:39] Brittany: Absolutely compliance is huge. So the next thing, keep it short and sweet. I’m sorry, but I don’t want a super text, heavy email to come through and.To have to read that, make sure it’s short and sweet. You get to the point there’s bullet points, even graphics are super great and making sure that it’s engaging otherwise. this is not 1992. We do not need all that times. New Roman straight up text on a newsletter. no, thank you. I don’t wanna read that.

[00:05:04] Rob: Yeah. only send that to people if you hate them. 

[00:05:06] Brittany: of course. and then make sure your content is consistent. You wanna make sure that you’re getting your message out on a timely basis if it’s monthly do monthly, it’s the same thing with your podcast, right? Once you have a schedule, stick to it and then make sure that you’re addressing topics that are relevant to your audience. If you have a business podcast and your audience are business focused, don’t send stuff out about rainbows and butterflies, like not really your audience, don’t do that. So just make sure that you stay on brand and there’s so many different subcategories within business.

[00:05:36] Brittany: And within other topics that you really have a plethora of content that you can provide to your audience. That’s valuable. 

[00:05:43] Rob: Absolutely. And even think about cross promotions. once you’ve grown your email list to, maybe a few thousand people or even a couple hundred depending on. What you’re promoting.

[00:05:52] That is an opportunity to reach out to other podcasters with an email list and say, Hey, I’ll promote your episode this week. You promote my next week. Assuming you’re in somewhat of the same vertical and you’d have audience you think would cross over. That’s a great way to potentially get audience members from them to you and you to them.

[00:06:12] So that’s a way to organically grow and honestly get new people on your list without paying for it. So it’s a lot cheaper than. posting ads 

[00:06:20] Rob: on websites or paying for expensive popups, et cetera. 

[00:06:24] Brittany: Yeah. 100%. So let’s talk about engaging your audience and really starting to build out your newsletter and people that are receiving your newsletter.

[00:06:31] So I think cross promos really does fit into this as well as, send an email every time you release an episode, that way you’re notifying people and you’re getting your listeners to be consistent with your podcast. I would say. Keep your readers up to date on what’s happening, not just with the podcast, but with you as an individual, people really wanna feel like they know you and that they have a personal connection to you.

[00:06:52] So if you’re anything like me, this is a very big challenge because I’m so private that I don’t want to, engage in a personal way, but you have to do this in order to gain an audience and to keep building on that audience, because that’s why people listen to you, cuz they like you and they feel like that closeness to you. So just something to keep in mind 

[00:07:10] Rob: and early on when you’re starting with zero subscribers, think about ways that you can draw people to your email list. So at the end of your podcast, you probably have a call to action. listen, like subscribe. You could actually note that you have a newsletter, people can sign up for that’s a great way to promote it.

[00:07:27] They’re already listening. You can put it on your social media as a call to action occasionally on Facebook. Because if you have a Facebook page, you have that button under your banner image that can have a call to action. That could be a sign up button for your newsletter. So think of ways. That you could draw people in outside of just your website. We’ve already talked about having that email filled there, but that’s just one mechanism to get names on the list. 

[00:07:51] Brittany: Absolutely. And a call to action is so necessary. And I think that’s one thing that people forget in the newsletter portion. So also, Rob [00:08:00] talked about cross promos, but also making sure that you are linking things in your show notes in your newsletter that’s other people’s content and that you’re providing additional value. And sometimes you will also get those people to backlink your content, which is super important when it comes to SEO and all of that good stuff. So that’s super important to have in your newsletter and can also branch out into your website and other things.

[00:08:23] Rob: And one will throw out there that honestly probably want to avoid because it can damage your IP reputation is purchasing email list. So you’ve gotta be really careful. There are a lot of shady services out there that will promise you the sun, the stars, and the moon, and guarantee you that they’re gonna give you X, many people who are exactly who you’re looking for.

[00:08:45] And they’ll give you a list full of names. if you go that route, you need to do a lot of research on the organization before you purchase it, to make sure one, they are reputable, make sure that they are collecting the names in. At least a single optin, if not a double optin fashion. So a great example of a double optin, there’s an organization called care two, and what they do is they put out surveys.

[00:09:09] So these surveys can have any kind of call to action. As people submit them. It might say I’m interested in cancer research and then organizations that are doing cancer research will sign up with care too. And say, we are looking for people interested in cancer research when they go to buy that list, the care two organization sends those people on their list and email and asks if they would be interested.

[00:09:34] And that’s the second opt-in. So if people say they’re interested in talking to that organization, then that organization gets the email, not just by buying the list. If you buy a list and you’re not sure about the organization, be careful. Cause if they give you a bunch of garbage emails, especially spammy bot ones, you load them into your system.

[00:09:52] Whether it’s constant contact, MailChimp, SendGrid, whatever your IP address will get a black mark. And it can prevent messages from being sent in the future and cause you a lot of pain and frustration. 

[00:10:06] Brittany: Yeah, I think that’s a really good point, especially cuz people don’t think about when you’re buying a list, you obviously you’re purchasing something that of value and you assume that the other company has done their due diligence, but that’s a great point because it could be a bunch of bot emails, which is never good.

[00:10:21] So I think, some of the really important takeaways are having an email list is an excellent way to engage your podcast listeners and to have that on a more personal level and to build trust with your brand. So I think, that’s one of the big takeaways for me when using a newsletter.

[00:10:35] Rob: Definitely. And I’d say another one is you wanna drive that consistent content to your users, just like with your podcast. If you’ve set up a monthly schedule or a bimonthly schedule, try and stick to that as closely as possible. If you are sending your messages every other Tuesday, stick to that, I’ll throw in there.

[00:10:54] There are plenty of statistics and measurements, a bunch of which you can find on our site, digitiv.pro. Around the best time to send emails. There are some people who say Tuesday, Thursday, 10:30 AM. There are others who say completely different. we all have our opinions, but there are plenty of marketing stats to help you determine when’s gonna be best for you.

[00:11:13] Brittany: Absolutely. So I think we’ll wrap it here, please listen, like and follow the podcast and we’ll see you guys next time.

[00:00:00] Rob: If you have a podcast, apple podcast is going to be a very important directory for you. That is because they control nearly 30%. Of the world market share when it comes to mobile, which is still huge, even though you’re thinking it’s only 30%, but that is an extraordinary number of people.

[00:00:17] And recently apple actually shared some information about how apple podcast search functionality works, which is really interesting because a lot of the tech giants are very secretive. They don’t like to tell us what’s going on with their algorithms now. we say that with a kind of a grain of salt, because they didn’t give us the exacts of this is how it works.

[00:00:36] This is how you get to the top. They gave us a little nugget. So today we’re going to explore some of the information that they shared with us so that you can better rank within apple search results. And let’s start with the basics. That is your metadata. We’ve spoken about this before. We’ve blogged about this before your metadata is the title of your show.

[00:00:56] It’s the title of your episodes. It’s the description, it’s the keywords. But what Apple’s saying, they care the most about is the title of your show and the title of your episodes. So they need to be clear. So think about it from the perspective of your listener. If they saw the title of your show and the title of your episodes, would they know what they’re about?

[00:01:17] If you’re creating titles that are vague and they only make sense to you, one people probably aren’t clicking on them, cuz it doesn’t make sense to them. And two, according to apple, that is not gonna help you show up in their search cuz they are looking for clear, concise titles.

[00:01:31] Brittany: which also is super helpful for your listeners. Just as a side note, also apple mentioned that popularity plays a role in how they rank you and how you’re searched. So this is, podcast with large followers and a large amount of plays in apple podcasts specifically. Make sure that if you are trying to show up in search on apple, that you are directing your people to apple podcasts. Otherwise if they’re listening on another streaming service, it’s not really gonna help you in this avenue. 

[00:01:59] Rob: And I found that very interesting. it makes sense, apple, Spotify, they all want you to utilize their platform, but apple is straight up telling you if you wanna rank better, you need to use apple podcasts.

[00:02:10] So when you think about that. How are you directing people there it’s in your intro or outro? Whenever you’re telling people where to listen, it’s when you promote it on social. So think of what’s your call to action. When you create graphics, a lot of us like to put the apple podcasts, a Google podcast, a Spotify logos, think of what you’re putting on your podcast covers and where you’re putting them, because that does influence people. People are very visual. So they’re gonna go to the one that they know. 

[00:02:40] Brittany: Yeah. And also make it simple for them to click on. So make sure it’s a clickable link to your podcast in apple. 

[00:02:45] Rob: Yeah, absolutely. So the way we do it is we are a little more agnostic. We drive people to our website and we embed our players. We do have links to go out to those platforms, but we prefer people to actually utilize just our direct player. So you might want to directly utilize and embed those links for apple podcasts. If you’re really trying to rank on that platform.

[00:03:06] Brittany: Yeah, absolutely. And that goes for any platform, right? So it’s not just apple, but I will say apple, like Rob said in the beginning is a top contender. The other one is Spotify. So I don’t know apple hasn’t locked down as much as Spotify has. So I think apple is the better choice to try and get viewed on their search results.

[00:03:24] Rob: And one thing I thought was interesting from the article that they published was regarding the availability of your podcast. I had never actually thought about this by default. Your podcast is available in all of the apple podcast markets. I think they said there’s 170, which are countries and regions, but you do have the option to go in and deselect those regions or countries. If you do not wanna show up in those search results or in those areas. But if you think about it, If you deselect any of those, you are limiting your potential audience. So in my mind more is better. I would select them all. I would leave that default setting, but to each their own 

[00:04:00] Brittany: yeah. I’m a little curious as to why you would wanna be restricted. I don’t know. Maybe if you’re talking about something super controversial and in another country you’ll get in trouble. Maybe that’s a reason, but that’s really the only one I can think of why you wouldn’t want your podcast out there.

[00:04:12] Rob: Yeah. Actually, if somebody is listening and they have a reason, please let us know in the comments. I would love to hear from somebody on that.

[00:04:18] Brittany: I like it. Yeah. So it said something in the article about the release date. So set the release date and time for shows and ensure you have all the required content rights. when you are releasing your podcast on apple podcasts, which I don’t know why those would play a role in it, but.

[00:04:32] Rob: It does make me wonder they don’t explicitly note any of this. I’m curious if, and actually we’d probably need to look at, a slice of actual podcaster data cuz apple would never share this most likely. never but right. Looking at. When are most people tuning in, so let’s, I’m making these numbers up, but let’s pretend on Wednesdays between the hours of 3:00 PM and 5:00 PM Eastern time. There were crazy numbers of people listening to apple podcasts. So people who were scheduling episodes to release on Wednesday were performing better. I wonder if there might actually be user influence just based on user behaviors that they’re not completely sharing, but they’re maybe alluding to, with that.

[00:05:14] Brittany: yeah, that definitely could be the case. I do know that they look at how high the engagement is in user behavior when they are, accounting for where you show up in search. And the thing about apple is they give you enough information to know how to get better, but they definitely don’t give you enough information for you to actually. Know how it works. 

[00:05:31] Rob: Yeah. I think this is where being one of those tech giants. They’re really good at they’ve given us a little nugget, so they’re like, Hey, these are the bare minimums you need to achieve to get into our search results. But. We’re gonna say it’s popularity that gets you to the top, which I think we all knew that, which is AK. You need to bust your ass to promote your podcast, to get your listeners, to get your audience, to promote it on social, via email, wherever you’re doing it, to get, earbuds in ears to hit play on you.

[00:06:00] Brittany: Yeah, absolutely. And, I think that’s the drawback to some of these bigger tech giants is that it’s not as accessible as we would like it to be, especially for like indie podcasters. it does make it a little bit more difficult. That’s why I’m also sad that a lot of these, smaller companies are being bought up by companies like Spotify, because it’s really going to reduce the amount of insight we have into how things actually work and how to improve your rankings within these different platforms, 

[00:06:25] Rob: which is a discussion for a later day, but a problem that will tackle as well.

[00:06:29] Brittany: absolutely. We always do. All right. Do you have any final thoughts on this, Rob? I would throw it out there. I think apple is a great tool for distribution of your podcast. Personally, I wouldn’t focus solely on it, but it is really good to know what they’re focusing on, even if it’s just a glimpse.

[00:06:45] Rob: But in addition to that, look at your podcast hosting, make sure that you do fill out things like the description, your keywords, et cetera. Because that’s also really important for search engines, pull in podcasts. Now you see ’em on Google search all the time. That’s just one more way you can show up in rankings.

[00:07:01] And like we said earlier, apple is 27%. Of the market share of the world. Android actually controls the greater percent it’s over 70. So you also wanna consider where you’re ranking in Google or Google play, Google podcast, whatever the heck we’re calling it these days. So make sure you’re filling out all of that information and playing the metadata game across the board.

[00:07:22] Brittany: I think that’s great advice. I think we’re gonna wrap it here. Thanks for tuning in. Please listen, like and follow the podcast and we’ll see you guys next time.

[00:00:00] Rob: We’ve all heard of writer’s block. I think that’s pretty common. Whether you are a professional writer or you have to write a blog for work, we’ve all hit a brick wall, but you might not have heard of pod block, but as a podcaster, I bet you’ve experienced it at some point pod block. Is that horrible crippling feeling.

[00:00:18] When you feel like you’ve run outta content, you’ve run out of ideas and you’ve hit a wall and you don’t know what to do next, and you’re running dry on episodes. So today we’re gonna give you some tips on how you can come up with fresh content, get the juices flowing and make sure you’re coming up with fresh new episodes.

[00:00:35] So let’s start with idea generators. This is one of my favorites, just because it’s something fun you can do. There is a website called portent, probably pronouncing that wrong. P O R T E N T. This is a site where you can put in some random words or you can just let it generate things. It will try to give you podcast topics kind of on the fly that it gave to me.

[00:00:58] And I’m not making this up, was save your marriage using old and guests. Now not being a swinger myself, that wouldn’t be the way I would save my marriage, but Hey, to each their own, I think it was just confusing some of my keyword there, but it gave me a laugh and it’s just a way to get some ideas out there.

[00:01:15] Brittany: Yeah. I think that’s, there’s actually quite a few websites that you can use, for idea generation. I think that’s a good one. I know that there have been some others that have been released recently that are super helpful. And let’s be honest. We all get there. We all get exhausted from what we’ve been doing. And I will say also attending webinars and doing some of that kind of stuff also helps you come up with topics and spider webs, multiple topics based on the conversations that you hear in the webinar. 

[00:01:42] Rob: yes. Great point. I think that’s something we’ve talked about in previous episodes where.

[00:01:47] You not necessarily are regurgitating content, but if you’ve heard something interesting, there might be tangents or new angles on content that you can talk about or at least give it a unique perspective. And that could also be an opportunity to even engage the individual who you got the idea from for a guest spot for a discussion.

[00:02:05] Brittany: Yeah. I love the idea of getting a guest on your show because they also have a unique. Outlook on things and it spices up your episodes a little bit just to bring in a guest in kind of a change of pace. 

[00:02:15] Rob: Definitely. I think some of our best episodes have included guests, I think mainly because we have a really good time when people come on the show and I think we cut out a lot of the explicit components where we, maybe have a little too much fun, but, save those for the blooper reel.

[00:02:28] And there are applications such as PodOps where. You can search for guests, you can search for other podcast hosts. If you want to do a podcast tour, that’s also a way to generate content. So if maybe you’re running a little bit dry, think about taking your expertise to other shows and guesting for them as they put the shows out, that’s something you can plug into your feed and share with your audience as well.

[00:02:53] Brittany: Yeah. And I think that a lot of people have seen a lot of success from doing things that way, because even for us, we’ve been on a couple of other podcasts. And I think that they gave us an interesting angle that we maybe didn’t think about for our business. I think one of ’em was compliance within data we were asked about data extraction and how we do it for compliance reasons and why it’s so important, which that’s not anything that you and I really talk about because it’s so second nature for us. And it was just an interesting perspective even on our own business. So I think that was really good for us to go on that show and talk about a different aspect of our business. 

[00:03:27] Rob: I agree. And to your point, it’s something we do day in and day out. So we don’t talk about it a lot. And we maybe don’t even think about it as being an expert, cuz it is just second nature. So it was nice to have another show host, really dig in and pull that information out of us. And I think it made a really interesting show that otherwise that content would’ve never come from us. 

[00:03:48] Brittany: Yeah, exactly. A hundred percent agree.

[00:03:50] Rob: And one other I’ll throw out there, especially if you were a blogger prior to being a podcaster, look at your old content that can potentially be a gold mind of topic ideas. So Brittany and I were blogging for probably two full years for our company before we launched our first podcast. And not that we turned every one of those into an episode, but as we started ramping up and trying to think of idea.

[00:04:16] It was a great way to look back on things we had done and come up with discussion topics for some of those early episodes. 

[00:04:24] Brittany: Yeah, I agree. And I think also thinking outside the box, like maybe how something else applies to your business. I think I wrote a blog on NFTs because I went to a class on it and it’s still a little bit foreign to me, but it was interesting. And I was like, I’m gonna write a blog on it, on How it could apply to podcasters. And so I think, like I said before, just finding creative elements that really can apply to things that you might not necessarily talk about, but how it integrates into your business or your podcast 

[00:04:49] Rob: and topics like that because they are, they’re definitely in the news, they’re all over the web right now because a lot of people are just learning about it. Ourselves included. They actually cause discussion. So that’s exactly what you want with your podcast. You’re putting something out there. You’re starting to question things. It gets other people talking, it gets them listening and it also gets them commenting. So sometimes with our podcast, we don’t necessarily think of people, commenting on social media all the time or reviewing within the different platforms like apple podcast, Spotify, et cetera, but it is a way to engage them and get them to converse with you as.

[00:05:24] Brittany: Yep. And I think engaging an audience is so important, especially in podcasting cuz that’s how you create followers and fans. 

[00:05:31] Rob: And we all wanna be influencers at the end of the day. Don’t we? Except for us. Cuz I think we’ve aged out of that. 

[00:05:36] Brittany: yeah. I don’t really, I actually had an interesting conversation with someone and they’re like will being famous, be like a thing in the future or will it just be like, everyone will get their 15 minutes somehow because we’ll all be online.

[00:05:48] I don’t know. And people get bored so easy. So it’s it was an interesting concept that this guy was talking about and I was like, that’s an interesting outlook on. So maybe that will be a podcast. Yeah. Be another podcast. Let’s explore that. I like it. 

[00:05:58] Yeah.

[00:05:59] That’s, the other thing, just talk to interesting people. You will get so many ideas of what to talk about and different perspectives. And that’s also how you get people on your show. 

[00:06:07] Rob: Absolutely. So don’t fear the pod block lean into it. Try different things.

[00:06:12] There’s always new content out there to be created. 

[00:06:15] Brittany: All right. A hundred percent agree. So go out there and get it done. Thanks for tuning in. Please listen, like and follow the podcast and we’ll see you guys next time. 

[00:00:00] Brittany: So starting a podcast. I initially thought, oh my gosh, this is gonna be so easy. And it’s not that it’s hard. It’s that it’s tedious. There are so many moving parts and so many things that you have to do for your podcast. And I think it’s really important to talk to people about what they can outsource, because otherwise I feel like people just give up and they’re like, you know what?

[00:00:19] This podcast thing, a lot of work, a lot of time, a lot of energy, I’m not gonna do it. We don’t want you to have pod fade. We want you to be successful. So there are some great things that you can do. To outsource your tedious task and keep you on track with your podcast. And one of those things is transcripts can be very time consuming and very tedious, and there are a lot of options for transcripting.

[00:00:41] You can hire someone like on Fivrr, or you can actually feed them through an AI program. One of them is auto.ai. which is a good one. And then you can also, if you’re already using D script, they also have a great transcript, processor. So I think those are some great options for your transcripts and it definitely alleviates a lot of time and energy.

[00:01:03] Rob: I think rolling off of transcripts. Another one that sometimes scares people are the show notes, which from my perspective, as the kind of web dev nerd, they are very important for your search engine optimization. They are useful for your metadata, which also ties into your search engine optimization or SEO, depending on how comfortable with that lingo you are.

[00:01:25] But show notes can be tedious, especially if it’s a longer episode. So that is something you could also outsource. And I think there sometimes there might be a little bit of stigma when we say outsource. So maybe think of it as hiring a contractor or a partner to help you. We’re not necessarily always talking about hiring somebody in a foreign country for pennies.

[00:01:46] It can be somebody locally. It’s really more about getting you the help you need to be successful within your budget. 

[00:01:54] Brittany: Yeah, absolutely. And I think something to consider is that a lot of people left their corporate jobs and are doing, things like show notes and things like that. So I think it’s also helping people find their own independence, from working in a corporate environment.

[00:02:07] So just think of it that way as well. We, I think it’s called the great resignation is what we’re calling it right now. I think everybody had burnout. So some of this stuff is actually relaxing to people who came from very high stress, jobs and they just wanna do something. maybe some of us consider monotonous or a pain in the butt.

[00:02:24] Rob: It’s something they might find relaxing just because they can sit there, they can do it on the couch. They can do it in the kitchen. You can do it while you’re managing your kids or whatever. With the other hand, think about it like that side hobbies or side hustles, whatever we’re calling it these days.

[00:02:37] Brittany: Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing with show notes is don’t forget to include links. Links are so important. It gives you that back leaking option and if you’re having guests and stuff on your show, it gives people access to your guests. So don’t forget to add those into your show notes.

[00:02:50] Rob: Now, Brittany, I’m gonna ask you your opinion on this one, cuz I’m not sure you would be willing to outsource this cuz like me, you’re an, a type personality you like control. how do you feel about editing as an outsource item? 

[00:03:01] Brittany: So I will tell you that there have been times where you have been like, Brittany, you cannot do all the editing. You need to find help. I did have someone help me on one episode and it was really hard because I did have to go back in because I am such a perfectionist and I do certain things that other people maybe don’t do, certain, Breath markers and things like that. I take those out where someone else is it’s not that big of a deal.

[00:03:29] Leave them in. They leave in a lot of the likes and ums and a lot of filler words, which I typically take a lot of that out. I leave some of it, but I do take a lot of it out. So for me, editing is I’m such a perfectionist at it that I don’t know how I can let that go. I know at a certain point I’m probably gonna have to, I do edit for a lot of our clients and.

[00:03:49] I think that’s why they like working with me because the end product is way better than they would get with someone else that maybe only does the bare minimum and maybe does some leveling. I think that’s [00:04:00] a big thing. A lot of people do levels and they leave a lot of the other stuff in.

[00:04:03] It probably saves them a lot of time, but I am not that way. I think if you’re a really good speaker and maybe you’re not such a perfectionist, I think it’s a great option. And I think it will save you a ton of time and it will make your life a lot easier, especially if you’re releasing episodes consistently.

[00:04:18] And if you’re doing two episodes a week, that can be overwhelming because you have to get edited and launched probably within 24 to 48 hours, which can be very stressful. Especially if podcasting is a side gig. 

[00:04:28] Rob: Yes, but I will say you do make us sound really good. I appreciate that our clients appreciate that for everybody else. So I think, to your point, if you have the ability to outsource, especially if it is a side gig and it’s within your budget, it might be realistic. I’m thinking to our other podcast, pod drops. Yes, there are only 60 second episodes. But imagine if every episode had been 20 minutes and those episodes are released five days a week, every single weekday, that would’ve been an overwhelming amount of work that, even if you had no other work throughout the day, I there’s no way you could have done it alone.

[00:05:03] We would’ve had to have taken on at least one or two people to assist with that just because how much work that would be for a daily podcast. 

[00:05:11] Absolutely. And I think also considering if you have a podcast that has to be launched timely, like if you’re talking current events or things like that, and you have to launch it, you really have to be really quick on the turnaround for those things.

[00:05:24] And that can be really difficult if you are, like I said, doing this as a hobby or you have other stuff going on in your life, you go on vacation, things like that. It can be really difficult to get all that done your. 

[00:05:34] Yeah. And I’m actually, I’m flashing back to our interview with Tom Fox of the compliance podcast network.

[00:05:40] I think he said he alone, not counting all of his, hosted podcasts has seven. I think it’s seven of his own podcasts. So even that on a weekly basis, the amount of editing. So if you’re somebody who has multiple podcasts and they are coming out, with weekly episodes, that’s another opportunity.

[00:05:57] Maybe you’re editing one, but maybe the other six, you have somebody who takes those on for you. So maybe you have your kind of prize jewel where you take the Brittany approach and it gets the gold standard of editing. And then you give the others that maybe they can be a little lesser or they don’t need quite as much time to somebody else.

[00:06:16] Yeah. 

[00:06:16] Brittany: I agree with that. And there’s also a diverse opinion on quality. as far as sound goes, I think people I have heard since 2020 people are more okay with less quality, I a hundred percent do not agree with that. I will not listen to something that does not have good audio. I listen to seven to 15 podcasts a week just depending on.

[00:06:35] And those are usually daily podcasts. I have a couple that are weekly, but most of those are daily podcasts that I listen to. I do listen at one and a half. Therefore I can get through them. I listen to them at gym on my walks. So that’s how. I really listen and get a lot of my news and my education is through podcasting.

[00:06:53] So I love to consume media as audio. So for me, it is so important that the quality is good, where, like I said, we’ve had conversations with other people that disagree with me and say, people are more willing to listen to crappy sound because we’ve all been on zoom for two years and I’m like, mm, I don’t.

[00:07:10] Rob: I don’t on a tangent too far off, but I wonder if that’s a cop out response we’re getting from people just because they’re lazy editors I don’t wanna offend anybody, but I’m like, I wonder if they’re being lazy editors and they’re just saying that, people don’t care because they don’t wanna put in the time and effort. Just a thought. 

[00:07:26] Yeah. Like we’re still getting listeners, we’re still getting advertisers. It doesn’t really matter. I wish that I wasn’t an, a type personality because it’s like anything. My name is on. I want it to be quality. I do not want it to be less than I agree.

[00:07:38] Brittany: I’m not saying I’m perfect, but I’m just saying, sure we make, we all make mistakes, but, the episodes are pretty good.

[00:07:43] Rob: One other thing I’ll throw out there that you could outsource and potentially you could just do this upfront when you launch your podcast is your creative. So think of your artwork. If you are not a graphic designer or you don’t have access to Photoshop or other online tools, that is something you could probably find somebody.

[00:08:00] On Fiverr or Upwork or a number of other websites who can affordably create you something that looks great, or even us, we also offer those services. But depending on how you do your episode, you may not need the cover to change for every episode. So if you’re not doing guests or if you don’t list the episode title, so that might be a one and done.

[00:08:20] If it’s something you do need to change for every episode, just make sure you’re getting a file that you can edit. So a Photoshop or illustrator file, cuz you wanna be able to go back in and change it. You don’t want a JPEG. You don’t want something. That’s flat. And you can’t be edited. There’s nothing that looks worse than when somebody tries to slap a bar over a title and type it with a different font. It looks awful. We see it all the time. Makes me sad. 

[00:08:45] Brittany: Yes. So we are people of quality. So I think everyone should take that into account. When you are creating all of the aspects of your podcast. I think we’ll wrap it here. Please listen, like and follow the podcast and we’ll see you guys next week.

[00:00:00] Brittany: Today, we are going to jump into networking. If anyone knows me, they know that I am an introvert, but I’m also an extrovert. It’s very strange. And I think 2020 you just proved. That I actually do need people in my life being isolated was really hard for me, but I’ve realized that I only liked being around people that I like. So that’s a problem with networking, right? 

[00:00:19] Rob: Only a little bit, in the regards of meeting new people and growing a business. 

[00:00:23] Brittany: Yes. Yes. So that is really hard for me, but I like to feel comfortable once I’m comfortable, we’re besties. I just wanted to talk today about five of my favorite things that I’ve done and that we’ve done as a business to network that have really made it more comfortable for me, just to get a little creative with how to network, So one of the first things I did when I moved to Savannah was I got involved with an organization that I feel strongly about their mission. We believe in the same things. It’s been actually really great. I ended up being on a board now, and to be honest, I, 95 inside. So most of my best friends are in their seventies, which this organization has just kept that up because all of the people I hang out with are in their sixties and seventies typically.

[00:01:04] So I love them. They’ve been great mentors to me, and they’ve actually been able to network for me outside of. That organization,, which is nice, but they’re also anytime they hear someone’s starting a podcast, or they want to start a podcast, or, they’re looking for someone to do their website.

[00:01:20] My name always comes up, which is been really great. So I would say if you’ve moved to a new place or you’re just in a place where maybe you’ve stopped meeting people, join an organization that you can volunteer for, that has the same mission as you it’s been really good for me and our business.

[00:01:34] Rob: That makes me look forward to my next trip to Savannah mostly because all of your friends will be absolutely down with eating dinner with me at 4:30 and then being in bed by 8:30. It’s like a dream come true, 

[00:01:44] Brittany: correct

[00:01:45] Rob: Yes. 

[00:01:46] Amen. And I know Brittany and I have talked about podcasts conferences before, and we’re going to reiterate that here, but we’ll put a little spin on it. The first podcast conference we went to together. We didn’t really make great use of the online tools that were available, because we weren’t aware that they were there.

[00:02:04] They weren’t really marketed to us in a way to be like, Hey, you have all these ways to connect with people prior to going to the conference. And it made it really difficult to try and make those connections. Especially cause, the podcast community is fairly close knit. The people who are not brand new, they know each other.

[00:02:21] it’s like seeing old friends, which is great, but then it’s like being back in high school where you’re nervous to break into a crowd, a group of people talking. So sometimes you just shy away. So that was really the kind of float pod that we stepped into in our first conference.

[00:02:35] Brittany: But I think this latest conference that Brittany went into. And she can hit more on this. she did a lot of pre networking and I think you’d probably say it was safe to say that made networking a lot easier the second time around. Absolutely. And also I’m all about positioning and being strategic.

[00:02:52] So I also put myself at the registration desk, so I volunteered always a good thing. And I put myself at the registration desk, so I could introduce myself to people in a very natural way because. That’s just how I roll. Like I’m always going to put myself in a situation that works for me and makes me comfortable. Otherwise I’m a hot mess. 

[00:03:10] Rob: Hey, I’d like it work to your strengths, right? 

[00:03:13] Brittany: Hey, you got to work towards something, Amen.The other thing that I’ve done since I moved to Savannah. And for those of you that haven’t been following the podcast, I moved to Savannah on a whim and just bought a house and decided I didn’t know anyone. So I just, like I said, I’ve had to be creative on how I meet people. So I joined a meetup group and my favorite one is a kayaking group and it’s been amazing.

[00:03:33] And I’ve met a lot of people that. I have done a lot of different things and we talk about kayaking and stuff, but then we get into other facets of our lives, what we do for a living, how things are connected, those types of things, and business always comes up. So that’s actually been a great way for me to network for our business, as well as just like making new friends.

[00:03:51] It’s been great. And you get an activity out of it. I fallen in love with kayaking. If you are in Savannah, you should definitely do a kayaking trip on one of our rivers here. Super cool. 

[00:04:01] Rob: And with the meetups, even before you moved down to Savannah, when you’d come visit in Baltimore, we would actually go to business networking meetups.

[00:04:10] So , there are specific ones for that in most cities. The only thing I’d warn people to watch out there, a lot of them you’ll look and they suddenly have a ticket price for the networking events. And you got to dig a little bit deeper and see who’s putting on the event. ‘ cause sometimes they’re actually a marketing scam where it’s just a company that they go around the city over and over again.

[00:04:33] And it’s just bringing the same people together to get them to buy a ticket. And you actually never meet anybody outside of that circle. Not that those aren’t great people, but I need to meet more people. If I’m going to pay to go to networking events than just the same, five or 10 people, 50 times.

[00:04:49] Brittany: Agreed. And there’s great networking events with your chamber of commerce and things like that. They have, a small business networking group pretty much in every city. [00:05:00] So that was really great for us. we actually had a lot of fun when I lived in Baltimore for the summer, when we were, focused on starting our business and things, we actually had a lot of fun at the business networking event.

[00:05:09] Rob: speaking of the business networking events, I will say, if you even look at local restaurants near you, A lot of them are starting to throw little parties like that. So they’re starting to pop up. Some might be themed or they might be geared towards, business women or specific business verticals.

[00:05:27] So keep an eye out for that, because that can be a great way to also meet other small business owners or other podcasters in your area, which, you know, if you’re trying to get away from the zoom version of doing this, which I think it’s a lot harder to network, even if it’s a virtual cocktail hour, a lot of people are inclined to stay on mute.

[00:05:48] It’s not very comfortable to be on a screen with 15 or 40 strangers and feel like, yeah, I want to take the lead and introduce myself. So it can be a lot more comfortable to do that. In-person and, have an appetizer, have a drink, do a kind of a meet and greet around the room. Tell people about what you do.

[00:06:06] But I am seeing a lot more of that. At least in our areas, it seems to be appearing a lot more. 

[00:06:11] Brittany: Yeah, absolutely. and I think we’re finally, 20, 22, I think people are just ready to get out. start focused on being out with people, because like you said, the zoom thing, I think we’re all over it. A little bit. 

[00:06:22] I personally hate zoom, but I’m just going to say before 2020, nobody wanted to have a video call. We would just have a good old fashioned phone call, which even that I was apprehensive about, I’m like, can you just text me? if we weren’t doing a podcast, like just text me and now everything.

[00:06:38] Rob: Is a video call. It’s a FaceTime call. I’m like, you don’t need to see my face. there are days if we’re not recording, I’m like, I don’t want to do my hair. Now I have to do it. Or I have to go find my digital hat and put it over my head. So you don’t see how bad this looks.

[00:06:51] Brittany: sometimes we’re just exhausted. don’t make me get on video, but it’s definitely way more popular than I expected it to be. But I do think that people are a little bit burnt out from it. 

[00:06:59] Rob: Definitely. [00:07:00] So I think that is, giving more rise to the in-person networking events, which that kind of brings us to what we did last year, where we couldn’t find one.

[00:07:09] So we threw our own and pounded the pavement. We went into small businesses, we had printed up invitations and we invited people to come have some drinks. And honestly, it was just a way to try and meet other small businesses. In our area and we actually had a great turnout, like it was nerve wracking. We weren’t really sure who was going to show up.And we had almost a hundred people appear. So that was pretty exciting. 

[00:07:34] Brittany: It was awesome. I’m not going to lie. I recommend this to everyone. If you just want to throw your own party for your business, it’s so fun. It was so fun and it forced me to be the hostess. Which. Puts you in a different mindset.

[00:07:46] And once I knew that I was hosting the party, it was like, okay, I’m going to sit at the front. I’m going to get everyone a name tag. I’m going to show them their wonderful goodie box. That’s right. It was a box people. If there was no bags at our party, it was a box. It was beautiful.

[00:08:00] And we were the talk of the town, not going to lie. Everyone wanted that box. 

[00:08:03] Rob: Yes, it was a very popular box. one thing we’re very good at is marketing and presentation. So we do not go small and actually, we had an invented pop-ups like our app yet for the guests or hosts connection thing.

[00:08:16] But this was one of those initial forays for us finding people to guest on our podcast and really pushing our podcast to a whole new group of people who had not yet heard of us, because one, they weren’t podcast consumers and two, they just didn’t consume their media in the marketing channels that we utilize, So, it’s one of those, if they’re not where we’re advertising, we’re going to them. And that was the best way to do it. We literally went to them to their business and brought them all to a central meeting point where we could converse with them and they could also converse with each other. And a lot of people, it seemed like also make cross connections. So it didn’t just benefit us. It benefited all of those people as well. 

[00:09:00] Brittany: Yeah, I will say. Some of those people . We still are acquaintances. Some of them were really good friends with, we hosted our party at one of our client’s bars. It was amazing. It was so fun. And I stayed up late, which I never do.

[00:09:13] I stayed up late actually with another client. We don’t need to talk about it, but it was so fun. And., it puts you in a position where you don’t have a choice, but to talk to other people and they expect you to talk to them. So it’s not weird where most of the time, if I have to go to a party by myself, it’s a little awkward because I’m like, am I supposed to be talking to everyone?

[00:09:30] do they want to talk to me? I’m an overthinker. So no one usually gives a shit just for the record. Everyone’s too worried about themselves. So it’s really not that big of deal. I’ve had to have that pep talk with myself and I’ve gotten a lot better. Rob can attest to the fact that I’ve gotten a lot better about networking, but I will say throwing your own party was the easiest one for me.

[00:09:47] Rob: I agree. It’s still probably my favorite out of this list. Although thinking about the self-conscious factor, you just met. I’m thinking too, our first guest who arrived and the poor person who arrived right on time, [00:10:00] we both just went after him. we’re both trying to talking about, so I felt really bad that in retrospect, I’m like, oh, we probably came off way too strong.

[00:10:06] Brittany: Or maybe he felt really popular. You don’t know. 

[00:10:08] Rob: Yeah. You might be right. You might be right. 

[00:10:10] Brittany: I’m just saying I was looking good in my little party dress, so he’s probably just thrilled. 

[00:10:14] Rob: There’s that confidence. 

[00:10:16] Brittany: See that’s what your own party does for you and maybe a couple of shots. 

[00:10:19] Rob: Oh yeah. Did we mentioned that we had an open bar for everybody for two hours that really helped loosens people write up.

[00:10:25] Brittany: we did some appetizers as well. it was a really fun party. And if you want to see pictures go to our website, they are there. It was super fun. 

[00:10:33] Rob: So if you had to pick out of these five, would you still go with throw your own party as your favorite? 

[00:10:38] Brittany: Absolutely. It was so fun. And like I said, I think it also gave us the event planning too, because there was a lot of work that went into that. We’re very meticulous. We’re very detail oriented. I mean from name tags on the boxes. And we like refolded and we reorganize every single box so that it was , perfect. So they were all presented the same. we handed out the boxes in a certain way. it was very detailed on how we threw this party and that was fun to see it executed in a way that really lived up to our expectations.

[00:11:07] Rob: I agree. And now I look forward to us doing it again. 

[00:11:09] Brittany: Welcome to round two in Savannah coming this summer.

[00:11:13] I hope you love these tips on networking. I hope they help you. And I hope that you get out there, you network and you are successful. So thanks for tuning in. Please listen, like, and follow the podcast and we’ll see you guys next time.

[00:00:00] Brittany: There has been a really exciting update from Buzzsprout. Rob, have you heard anything about. 

[00:00:05] Rob: I heard some murmurings, but I’ll let you break that news to our listeners. 

[00:00:11] Brittany: So they are in beta for monetization, which is super, super exciting because other platforms do have this Buzzsprout has been lacking when it comes to this.So very exciting that they have released this. It just came out in May, which is awesome. I know that I know a lot of people have been waiting for it. And now that it’s in beta, you can earn money, however, you don’t get paid out until the beta is over. So that’s the drawback there. 

[00:00:37] Rob: So maybe just a little more information for myself and others. When we say monetization, I go directly to ads And I’m probably not alone. I think the traditional podcast model of inserting an ad, is it just that, or is there more to it that people can be earning potentially? 

[00:00:54] Brittany: So right now it is just, you get to pick what advertisements can be put into your [00:01:00] podcast.

[00:01:00] They’re automatically added by Buzzsprout so you don’t have to do anything. You just approve what podcasts you would want to advertise. I believe all of them currently the advertisements are for other podcasts, which is super cool, makes it easier. So you’re not, advertising products right out the gate, but they’ve made it.

[00:01:16] So I think Jordan harbinger is one that’s advertising. That’s one that just always comes to the top. we are advertising with our podcast, which is super exciting, I don’t know how much money we’re going to make, but, we’ll keep you posted on how much we end up making with our podcast through this beta program. 

[00:01:31] Rob: And I think you hit on something that makes it attractive to podcasters, especially those who are doing all the production work on their own. You mentioned that it’s automatically added. So by participating in this. You’re not adding any production time to your schedule. Is that safe to say for fair to say 

[00:01:51] Brittany: Correct. You will just upload your episodes, just like you normally do. And then you go click the monetize button. There are some requirements you have to meet in order to participate in beta, but after that you literally just go click through and either approve or decline each advertisement. And then they go through and put the mid roll in there for you. 

[00:02:10] Rob: Which sounds awesome. I like easy-peasy. 

[00:02:12] Brittany: Yes. 

[00:02:13] Rob: And you just mentioned requirements. So if somebody is suddenly interested and they want to try to enroll in this program, what are they got to do? And what minimum requirements do they have to hit?

[00:02:23] Brittany: So you do have to have at least five published episodes, which if you’re just starting out. You might not be there. So that can be a drawback for some of the newbies in the podcasting space. The other thing that might be a little bit harder for people to hit is a thousand downloads in the last 30 days. So that is one that can be tougher to hit. If you are a newer podcaster and haven’t quite grown your audience to that point. 

[00:02:49] Rob: And I would say with that one, there’s a great opportunity to check out our other podcasts, pod drops, which is based all around learning podcasting in 60 seconds. And we give a ton of tips around marketing and self-promotion. So if you are the new podcasts or take a minute, literally a minute and check that out. 

[00:03:10] Brittany: Yes. And at 60 seconds or less. So some of them aren’t even 62nd tips. They’re less than that. So yes, you should go check it out. The other thing is that you have to have episodes that are at least 23 minutes long. It doesn’t mean every episode has to be 23 minutes long, but you do have to have some that are longer than 23 minutes.

[00:03:26] Rob: And do we have any idea how picky Buzzsprout is being, say that I have only five episodes. And only one of them hit the 23 minute mark. Do we know if we would qualify or do we think they’re being like, Hmm, at least 50% of your episodes gotta be over that 23 minute mark. 

[00:03:42] Brittany: They didn’t specifically say they just said that you have to have episodes that are at least 23 minutes long.

I would assume that they’re being a little bit picky because obviously, this is beta. They want to see how it works with podcasts that have, I guess more depth to them. like our PoDrops does not qualify for this beta because our episodes are 60 seconds or less. there is a drawback there to the PoDrops cause we have put a lot of production and things into that series. So it’s unfortunate that we will not be able to monetize that through Buzzsprout. 

[00:04:11] Rob True. Maybe we’ll just do a mega episode where we lump 23 of them together and say, we qualify now. I’m just kidding. 

[00:04:19] Brittany:  yeah, let me know how that goes. I’m not doing that. Your job 

[00:04:21] Rob: and onto the next project. Nevermind. 

[00:04:24] Brittany: Yes. You also have to verify your email through Buzzsprout. That’s super easy. they send you a verification email, you click it. You’re verified. So that’s easy peasy stuff there.

[00:04:34] Rob: And I got to say it is interesting to see that they’re just barely doing this when. Not necessarily their competitors, but there are so many tools out there to add in certain features. And that got me digging around in Buzzsprout. And I was like, how old is this company? I didn’t realize Buzzsprout was actually founded in 2008.

[00:04:53] So they’re actually a little bit on the older side, they do a pretty good job of marketing themselves as if they’re a younger kind of newer company. I think that’s just through really fresh faced advertising, but. I feel like they have done what a lot of companies do, where they get a little bit larger and old and set in their ways.

[00:05:11] And then they’re not as quick to adapt. And I think this is, it’s a great step forward and very exciting to see them getting into that space. I’m curious how long it’s going to be a beta program before they work out all the bugs and kinks, and can really roll this out to all of their user base.

[00:05:26] Brittany: Yeah, I agree. A hundred percent. So. Buzzsprout is definitely more appealing to look at than something like Libsyn. I am so sorry that I named them, but it had to be done. They have a very old looking user profile. Is that what I would call it? A user profile? 

[00:05:41] Rob: Oh yeah. The user interface. I agree.

[00:05:44] It very much looks like something right out of the 1990’s. I don’t know, off the top of my head when they were founded or when they created their software, but, they have not invested in that particular area. And I know they have a lot of people that love them and I’m thinking back not to tangent too much.

[00:06:02] We recently built a podcast website for, Tyler Kameraman and he’s his Libsyn and it was. A little bit difficult for him to even get the embed code out of their site for us to put into the new WordPress site where, you know, Buzzsprout, they’ve made it so easy to just grab that embed code it’s right there in every podcast and not to pick on them any further, but even their player, it looks very dated when you compare it to this or some of the things we’re doing with PodOps you’re expecting these modern. Clean looking tools. And it’s interesting that they’re not investing in that component. 

[00:06:40] Brittany: Yeah. And I also think that there has just been in the last, two to three years, I think that there’s just been more competition in the podcast space. So I think that they’re like, oh crap, we didn’t realize all the tools were going to be coming out and that we were going to be competing at this level.

[00:06:52] So I do think that they are playing catch up. I will say at least Buzzsprout is appealing to look at and they do a good job. making things easy. So I will say Libsyn is a little bit harder to use, but, I think that they are working on their interface and we’ll see what comes from them in the future. I do know that they have bought a few other products that they’re going to integrate. So we’ll see what happens with that. 

[00:07:12] Rob: Oh good. They’re going to Facebook model. Buy and conquer. Sometimes it’s easier, that’s fair. See, we like to do it the hard way. We just like to build things from scratch ourselves to make them better.

[00:07:23] Brittany: Yeah. And make us older 

[00:07:24] Rob: wrinkles, and gray hair. It’s a sign of success. 

[00:07:27] Brittany: yeah, we’ll say that. So I will say you also have to be listed under three podcasts categories, which isn’t that big of a deal. So I think that those are the. The easy things and then have a paid plan. So you can not be on a free plan and also monetize. They’re not going to let you do that. So those are the five things that you must have in order to monetize in Buzzsprout. 

[00:07:48] Rob: I think that’s an interesting metric and I’m sure we will never know the answer to this, but , I would be curious to find out how many people, it forces off of the free plan into a paid plan to try and utilize that feature 

[00:08:00] Because I do believe they have that 90 day expiration on free plans and free episodes. So it would be interesting to see does that actually become a deciding factor for somebody who is dabbling in podcasting, that they would actually now pay for their hosting. And I actually, I was on their website today.

[00:08:19] I don’t know how true this metric is, but it says on Buzzsprout, homepage. over 3000 new podcasts created on their platform in the last 30 days. So they’re giving a rolling metric over the last 30 days, again, not sure how true that is or if it’s one of those fun marketing numbers that a lot of companies like to use, but I assume they’re being honest with that.

[00:08:39] Brittany: Yeah. And I will say, podcasting is growing, so it does make sense, the 90 day thing, I think it forces people to either decide that they’re going to continue podcasting or that it’s not worth it. Cause I think at 90 days you understand how much work goes into it. And if you’re able to execute on episodes and this is a worth keeping it alive.

[00:08:57] Rob: No, I think that’s a great point. And I don’t know any better way to say it’s like you got to shit or get off the pot at some point. So you got three months to decide. Make that move. 

[00:09:05] Brittany: Yeah. It’s so funny. Cause I was going to say that and then I was like, don’t say that and then you said it. at least someone was saying it.

[00:09:11] Rob: Yeah. Great minds think alike or horrible minds think alike, pick your poison. 

[00:09:15] Brittany:  Yeah, exactly. So anyways, with Buzzsprout this is really exciting because it does give people more access to monetization because it does get kinda. Hard to manage your podcasts in one platform and then advertising in another platform.

[00:09:29] And then you’re managing stuff on apple. You’re managing stuff on Spotify. You’re trying to do, sometimes people are creating bonus content to monetize or they’re managing a Patrion account, or they have a pod inbox fan page, which everyone should check out. We interviewed our friend pat, go check it out.

[00:09:45] Brittany: Such a cool product. Love it. Anyways. Look for Pat there. But I do you think this is a great way for Buzzsprout to number one, retain a lot of their users and number two, gain new users onto the platform because people are always looking for a monetization.

[00:10:01] Rob: I think you make a good point with that. And I think also most of us live in a space where we’re used to choices. So even with our podcast host, we know there are other choices. So if they’re not going to evolve, people are going to migrate to other platforms. So it is exciting to see that they’re investing in something new, we’ll see what comes of it and how long it sits in beta.

[00:10:21] That’s one thing that does make me nervous when they put out beta and things, sit in beta for a really long time. It makes me think about what Facebook did with their podcasts, where they get a year. And then they’re like, eh, nevermind. Let’s just dump it. And then suddenly you’re like, oh shit, there went that feature.

[00:10:36] Brittany: I don’t think it was lucrative for Facebook, but I do think this will be lucrative for Buzzsprout because advertising is how you make money in podcasting in case people didn’t know that’s how you do it.

[00:10:46] Rob: Agreed. 

[00:10:47] Brittany: So anyways, do you have any notes you’d like to add on both sprout and their monetization, beta 

[00:10:52] Rob: exciting. I think it’s going to be really cool to see that roll out., I think for us, it’s exciting even to see how it’s going to work into our episodes. And see what kind of reduction in time there is to the production schedule instead of having to source advertisements and do all of that extra work.

[00:11:10] So I think, again, a great feature looking forward to it, making its way out of beta and hopefully getting a few more bells and whistles. 

[00:11:17] Brittany: Absolutely. thanks so much for tuning in. Please listen, like and follow the podcast and we’ll see you guys next week.

[00:00:00] Rob: Today we are joined by the founder of the very cool product Podinbox, Pat, thank you so much for taking the time to hang out with us today. 

[00:00:07] Pat: Hey, thanks for having me. 

[00:00:08] Rob: Let me start by getting a little bit of background is Podinbox. The first company that you founded 

[00:00:13] Pat: no, I guess I’m what’s called a serial entrepreneur.

[00:00:16] I found a bunch of other companies, a lot of failed companies actually to tell you the truth but a couple of successful ones too. The one before this that’s a long story to the successful one before this was a company called Silver Sheet it was one where we got to raise a lot of venture capital.

[00:00:31] It was in the medical space, so totally different industry.

[00:00:34] Brittany: So how did you go from being in the medical space and working in tech with that into now having Podinbox and box in the podcasting space? That’s a pretty big transition. 

[00:00:45] Pat: Yeah, sure. Maybe just give a little bit context of the previous startup too. So, it was also a tech startup which hopefully give you context of Podinbox too.

[00:00:54] It’s also a tech startup, but Silver Sheet was a startup. I was a co-founder with someone I formerly worked within the social influencer space. So not to belabor that story, but he sold that company, the company’s called equal. And I was head of product there.

[00:01:10] So after he sold his company there, he’s Hey, I’m going to start a new company called silver sheet. It’s going to be in the. Medical credentialing space. Do you want to join as a co-founder cause we had a really great working relationship so that yeah, that was a great opportunity.

[00:01:25] I was going to start my own company at that time too. But because he’s a seasoned entrepreneur, I knew he could raise a couple million dollars, just right off the bat, even without a product. I was like, okay, this seems a sure Sherwin type thing. Decided to say yes to that.

[00:01:38] And so if you follow the trajectory of what I was on. Interested in, it was always in this kind of social influencer space. I’d say silver sheets in the medical credentialing space was a little bit of an aberration in that I just love to build product and he was a good entrepreneur and I just wanted to ride that train. I thought it was going to be just for a couple of years, but it ended up being for six years. So it built up that company grew, it grew quite a bit. And then we got acquired six years later. Yeah. And then now I’m in the podcasting space. Cause all that time when we were building a company, I just been a huge podcast fan.

[00:02:13] I was not a podcaster but just been a fan of podcasts for probably going on 12, 13 years now. So in the early years of podcasting and it’s just brought so much to my life. when I was thinking, after Silver Sheet got acquired. I thought building a tech startup from doing it a couple of times.

[00:02:30] And it was like, it normally takes about six years before you get enough traction that you become like an interesting company. So I thought what, I want to do. For the next six years of my life, who are the people I want to surround myself with, and I’ve always loved podcasters. I’ve always loved talking to them.

[00:02:44] I’ve oddly have a decent amount of podcasts or friends. And every time I talk to a podcast or I have a great conversation, so I thought, you know what? This is probably the industry I want to build, some business around. Yeah, that’s kinda how I got into the space and the product.

[00:03:00] Rob: And now that we know that you’ve, settled, at least for the current six years in the podcasting space, it brings us to Podinbox what exactly is Podinbox for a listener who might not have heard of it yet? 

[00:03:12] Pat: Sure in short Podinbox is a place where podcasters can create a fan page to engage their fans.

[00:03:18] I pause even when, as I said that. We actually just realized what, Podinbox was. It didn’t actually start out like that. So good. Just to give a little context, we launched Podinbox at the first podcast conference I went to, which was last year in August at Podcast Movements we were working on the idea and it was a simple idea just to start out with, it was just a way for podcasters to receive audio messages from fans.

[00:03:43] That’s why. Your inbox for your podcast, right? Hence the name Podinbox. And we use that launch. We’ve got a booth at Podcast Movement. Just to see if people were interested in this. And we got enough validation there that we, had a bunch of people sign up, to get their own Podinbox

[00:03:58] and we thought, you know what? This seems like there’s something here, so let’s continue going. And I say, we, I just realized it’s, more of a fan page because over the course of I don’t know, eight months we just kept building features. And we just built every feature through the lens of how do podcasters engage with fans.

[00:04:16] One form of engagement is to receive their audio message. So they could play it back on the show. That’s a pretty popular format. It’s just a way to engage their audience, get their audience involved into their show and get the audience member really excited, such that telling start building word of mouth, start telling their friends about the podcast.

[00:04:34] So podcasters love that format it’s like letting them do basically like fan call-ins without doing a live call-in. So we thought that’s a good feature and all, but we’re like, is there anything else? And then a couple months later, we’re thinking monetization is a pretty big.

[00:04:51] Type of fan engagement, right? Whether you’re doing it actually to make money or, almost as fan service. Cause a lot of fans want to actually support the podcasts you listened to whether with big donations or. Micro donations, like tips and stuff. So we thought, yeah let’s, work in donations and that’s just a couple examples and slowly we’re, like, wow, there’s so many features we could build around fan engagements.

[00:05:12] Why don’t we just call this a fan page? You know that these realizations just organically grew as we grew our product. And quite honestly just calling it a fan page was something we just stumbled on maybe just a couple of weeks ago. Now that we’re positioning as a fan page, it opens up the world of, wow, how else can fans engage with podcasters?

[00:05:31] Rob: And I noticed you say we, and I assume you’re not doing what I do. I have a terrible habit of I’m a Royal we’re. So it’s like all the voices in my head. I’m talking about all of us, is it. A whole team that’s working on Podinbox and not just yourself. That’s developing the concepts and new ideas.

[00:05:48] Pat: That’s a good question. I think I’m like you, then I’m a Royal. We-er too. And sometimes I think it’s cause I don’t like the spotlight. I don’t like attention. So I think I say we instead of me, because obviously the founder and the CEO and to get more context into that, I’m a bootstrap.

[00:06:03] We do have a couple of developers and some marketing freelancers, but it’s a really small team. It’s about three or four of us. And yeah, for this startup with I guess the last company, I started silver sheet.

[00:06:15] We raised millions of dollars or whatever, and built a pretty big team. I think we got up to about 60 people. And I thought this one, I’m wanting to keep it a little bit more on the simple end. The technology product is something I live and breathe. I’ve been a product designer and a product manager and a UX designer for.

[00:06:31] I guess it’s, I don’t even want to give away the years, cause that’s my age a little bit, but it’s where a lot of years I can save a lot of costs and team members there. Cause I play I dunno, maybe four different roles. But yeah, small team. 

[00:06:43] Brittany: I love it. So what has been the biggest challenge about starting a tech company in the podcasting space?

[00:06:49] Pat: Wow. Biggest challenge. First I had to learn a lot because not being a podcaster or just being a fan, I was coming from the fans perspective, which is good because that gives me 50% of the equation. But the other 50% is just learning from other podcasters, like what do they care about? What are their challenges?

[00:07:06] So just really immersing myself into the industry. As a researcher and a student, which is my background, as a product manager, a lot of times you’re thrown into situations and industries are not aware of, and you just have to learn, you have to become the subject matter expert.

[00:07:20] I think that was challenging, but it was good too, because I think what I’m finding about the podcast industry is and I heard your guys’ first podcast conference. Episode a couple episodes ago and I thought it was super interesting cause I had a similar experience just in August of 2021, that was my first podcasts conference experience.

[00:07:39] And it’s a tight-knit industry. I think that’s good and bad. Cause it’s, hard because you have to break in and get to know everyone, but I got so much encouragement after the first one. They’re like, you know what, year two, it’s going to be, you’re going to see it’s way different. People are going to remember you from last year or from the last conference.

[00:07:56] And and there’s like a lot of respect for being around for a year. So people will think realize you’re not going anywhere and you’re committed to this industry. So yeah, it was challenging in the beginning because I didn’t know anyone, no one knew who we were, but.

[00:08:12] Yeah, Getting a lot easier now. I know all the vendors now and some of the thought leaders and yeah, but that was challenging, very challenging in the beginning. 

[00:08:19] Brittany: So I have to ask you, are you very social person is it pretty easy for you to network and things like that?

[00:08:24] Pat: I think I’m, what’s called an ambivert. I love my alone time. But I really get super inspired talking to people but I think an extrovert maybe described this to me one that’s where they’re like, they’re so extroverted. They need to talk to every single person they meet.

[00:08:40] And then it gets some super tired where they need to go back into their cave and kind of regroup. I think that probably describes me. Cause I love talking to people , even these interviews are a little weird for me because I love asking questions. I don’t love talking about myself. So in that way, I’m an introvert which is great for someone like a product manager, but horrible for someone like a marketer, right?

[00:09:00] Yeah. But yeah, I love talking about Podinbox it’s something I’m super passionate about, obviously. So it’s not hard talking about it, but I think yeah, long-winded answer your question. I don’t know. I’d say I’m both. People’s stories intrigued me so much. That’s why I love talking to podcasters that yeah, it’s very easy to be extroverted and get to know people in that way.

[00:09:21] But after something like a conference, it’s wow, I got to go regroup for about a week. Like sometimes after a conference you get these follow-up emails, like the week after I’m like, wow. I’m in awe with the people who could do that because I need to take a vacation.

[00:09:33] Rob: Yeah. I’m right there with you. Post-conference. I need Downtime to mentally detox from just all the people stimulation. 

[00:09:41] Pat: Exactly. Are you all going to conferences soon? 

[00:09:44] Rob: Brittany is going to pod Fest next week, actually. I guess that won’t be next week when this airs, but the week of May 25th. Yes. 

[00:09:53] Pat: I am going.

[00:09:54] And if this gets included in the episode yeah, I will have seen you. 

[00:09:58] Brittany: I’m excited. Do you have a booth? 

[00:09:59] Pat: Yes. Yes. We have a booth first time at PodFest and I’m looking forward to it, hearing a lot of good things about it. 

[00:10:05] Brittany: I’ve heard that it’s like the best conference. So I’m excited to go. We’ve talked to a lot of people and they’re just like, that’s the conference you want to go to? Everyone loves Chris. I don’t know Chris, but everyone’s you need to know Chris. 

[00:10:16] Pat: yeah. I feel like Chris is like somehow figured out a way to be everyone’s best friend. 

[00:10:20] Rob: Yeah. 

[00:10:21] Pat: Yeah, I think that’s. So when you asked me about introvert extrovert, I’m like, I compare to someone like that and I’m like I think I’m an introvert because yeah.

[00:10:29] I don’t know how you become so many people’s best friend and I met Chris multiple times and he’s a seriously, like a good guy. Yeah. Yeah. So can’t wait to support both the conference and to participate in it. Or do you guys have a booth. 

[00:10:40] Brittany: No booth I’m, volunteering and helping them with some of the registration stuff.

[00:10:45] And then going to a lot of the sessions because their sessions are so different at Pod Fest. So I’m really excited about that. 

[00:10:52] Pat: Yeah, that’s one of the drawbacks of having a booth. I actually, you saw I podcast movement. I didn’t have a booth this last time around in LA and I love going to the sessions.

[00:11:01] It’s something I didn’t get to do the first time. And the sessions are great and. actually even going from booth to booth meeting people. Yeah, it’s a different dynamic that I think I’m not sure yet. What’s better having a booth or not having a booth 

[00:11:12] Brittany: let me know, after this one, how you feel it went and if he felt like the booth was worth it or not, we’ve been debating it.

[00:11:18] Cause we obviously there’s still so many of these conferences coming up this year. We’re still figuring that out. 

[00:11:23] Pat: Yeah, definitely happy to share notes, but I think just, even from the first time we had a booth, we only had a booth once at the first Podcast Movement.

[00:11:31] And I’m really happy about that decision because there was something to be said of no one knew who Podinbox was. And it was just a great way to introduce ourselves to the community. I’d say community because it’s very community driven. And it was just a lot easier to have a space where people could come to us and find out a little bit more about us.

[00:11:53] Sure there was a cost is not cheap. But overall worth it, I think cause the leg work, we probably would have needed to get our name out there and get the feedback that we needed would have been harder. I don’t know if it would have been more expensive, but it would have been harder.

[00:12:09] Yeah. So feedback. 

[00:12:11] Rob: Yeah, I think not to go too far off tangent with conferences. When we were debating doing a booth in my pre podcast life. In my old agency, we did tons of conferences, but it was for. Fundraising software. And I just remember anybody that came to the booth, they just came for whatever the free thing you were giving away was.

[00:12:30] And then they like tried as hard as they could to run away from you. And you felt like you were like the slimy salesperson trying to tackle them. And that I have these vivid memories and that’s when we were talking about it, I was like, I don’t want to do a booth. I don’t want to do that to people.

[00:12:43] It wasn’t like that at Podcast Movement, it was much different. So definitely this community is a tad different 

[00:12:50] Pat: that’s a good point. And maybe that’s why I’m a little bit more bullish on it, because I’m like, even as I’m thinking of this next one, I’m dreading it a little bit because you’re right. I don’t want to be the guy who’s oh, I got to grab people and bring them into the booth.

[00:13:02] It just seems slimy to me. I hate that. But yeah, it is different. I think podcasters. They, need these tools. They need to learn about all these things. So they organically tend to just come to see what you’re all about.

[00:13:15] The first one, I was like the Energizer bunny, just trying to talk to everyone in that possible, but I think this one’s going to be a different, I’m going to grab a chair pull it up next to the table and just sit there and answer a lot of questions. I hope that’s what the dynamic. 

[00:13:27] Rob: I like it. I look forward to the report back from both of you since I won’t get to be there this time, and now I’m going to steer us back to the product. Brittany and I are really good at tangenting things. So with pod inbox it has a lot of cool features.

[00:13:41] That’s one of the first things we got on the website, signed up, poked around. And one of the things I noticed you talked about the donations a moment ago, which it has some Patreon-esque type features, but what I thought was really cool about it is it does seem much more personalized in the sense of trying to create a connection between the show hosts and the listener.

[00:14:01] Is that the intent to really try and make that personal connection between the two people? 

[00:14:07] Pat: Yeah, exactly. That’s, a really keen observation cause we have. Some comparison pages with some of these other platforms Patreon being one of them. And yeah, we want it to start from a premise of how do we get the fan to engage? With the podcaster because ultimately we think that’s super important, in terms of how to grow a show because we’ve all learned. It’s the number one way shows grow is through word of mouth. But unfortunately, there’s no way you could just increase word of mouth, right?

[00:14:36] You can’t just pay some advertising dollars to say, Hey spread, this thing for me with, your friends. And we think you do that through a lot of fan service. You do that through just getting the fan hyped and excited. So we think fans get excited when they’re building a more personal connection with the podcaster so whenever we build a feature where like, how do we increase that engagement between fan and podcaster.

[00:15:00] And when we look around the industry around all the monetization type platforms, they all felt a little bit like e-commerce. To us, they felt okay, you go there to go buy something. That’s kind of it. You’re not talking to them. You’re not getting replies or anything. If anything, you might be getting more content.

[00:15:15] I don’t know if that’s engagement, but a lot of these platforms are like get access to private RSS feed or whatever it is or more episodes. But a lot of these we wouldn’t consider them fan engagement type platforms.

[00:15:27] It feels a lot like e-commerce, you’re going through a checkout, you’re going to buy something and then you get something in return for your support. Yeah, every monetization sort of feature we have. And we have a bunch of now we have just like just a flat donation. You could just give support, no strings attached.

[00:15:42] You could leave a message Which is it encourages you to leave a message first. And then you could add a tip to it, just to give a little bit of boost here, a message. And we have this new thing called reward levels too. I don’t know if you’ve got a chance to see that, we only released that for about three weeks and that’s yet another way to

[00:15:59] unlock different rewards. So, unlike a e-commerce like this is product a or product B you can buy the more you donate and support, you’re just unlocking different things, a podcaster can offer. Yeah, all of this to say it’s every single feature. We encourage more engagement from, the user and from the fan. Yeah. So good observation 

[00:16:20] Rob: think they’re all really great features. I do like to see that personal engagement, that connection. I think it’s lacking in a lot of the tools that are out there today. Like you said, they’re very transactional which I, get to a degree, they have that intent so good for them do what they do best, but with all the cool features you’ve rolled out.

[00:16:38] Is there anything on the horizon you’re excited about that you can give us a sneak peek of 

[00:16:43] Pat: sure. Like I mentioned we just pivoted our positioning to be called get a free fan page. So we think all these different features under the umbrella of having a fan page, the one sort of page that you could drive your fans to.

[00:16:59] We’re not saying anything disparaging about podcast webpages. We think that’s super useful. We’re not going to replace those. We don’t have any plans to you should probably still have a podcast websites. But we’re thinking we ask a lot of whenever I talk to a podcaster, ask the question, what’s your one call to action. In your episodes. And a lot of them are at a loss or it’s neither here nor there it’s not very consistent one pass customer could be like and review, I don’t know how. Really useful. That is a lot of podcasts is tent tend to say that and.

[00:17:29] it’s usually on one platform, right? Apple and some podcasters are just like I go to my Instagram and follow me or go to my social media, follow me. Our biggest hope is like we could be one of those call the actions we hope we could be the main one just go to my fan page and you could find all my social links there.

[00:17:46] You could find where to listen to me there and you could engage with me once again, we really think that activating a passive listener is probably one of the most important things you could do for your podcast. So if we could be [00:18:00] the number one thing with a fan page, if it calling it a fan page and making that the umbrella of more features where fans can engage that’s something we’ll be releasing soon.

[00:18:09] I say releasing because we’re revamping what we used to call our show page. Now we’re calling our fan page. So the page that you get once you sign up for a Podinbox account that fan page is going to look really different. By the time this airs, Basically, we’re releasing it in two days from the time we’re recording this podcast, so that will already be released.

[00:18:28] And yeah, and I’m pretty open talking about some of our roadmap items a couple of big, things we’re, playing with around the idea is one is it’s a pretty traditional thing. But if you’re a podcaster who just wants like a, sort of an ongoing chat with your fan members somewhere, I don’t know if there’s a great tool for that.

[00:18:47] Honestly right now like I think podcasts who are on YouTube, get that live chat, which is really interesting because when you see all the activity happening in there, there’s a lot of engagement happening on there. We’re like, oh, what if we put down on our fan page? So that’s one example of then you could see this fan page being an umbrella of multiple types of actions that fans could take.

[00:19:05] So we’re exploring fan chat rooms. Could we put one on there and maybe even a paid chat room? So it because we have this monetization as one of the core features, we could unlock a lot of other features. That’s tied into this monetization. So that’s something the chat room is quite honestly something I’m super excited about.

[00:19:24] Hopefully podcasters was very excited about. And maybe another one to tease out is we’re debating like crowdfunding. We have reward levels, which is a little different from crowdfunding, but if a podcast or wanted to get their fan base excited about helping hit, a monetary goal to unlock something together.

[00:19:41] We think that’s super interesting. We see. Phenomena, play out a lot in audio fiction, actually a lot of audio fiction folks like their, podcasts costs a lot more to produce, they need voice talent. They need sound engineers, all that kind of stuff. It’s not as easy for them just to turn on the mic and start recording and publish that [00:20:00] segment of the population sometimes needs some startup funds, some crowdfunding funds. So we want to explore if that type of feature would be interesting for not just audio fiction folks, but for the greater part of the community. So yeah, those are the two big ones. We’re thinking about 

[00:20:15] Rob: that. All sounds very cool. I look forward to testing the fan page when it rolls out.

[00:20:19] Pat: Right on. Yeah, it’ll be there in a couple of days. 

[00:20:21] Brittany: That’s awesome. I love those features. I also love the chat thing because you also see people that don’t necessarily want to do video. They don’t want to be on YouTube, but YouTube, has that feature. Some of the podcasts I listened to, they’re actually able to interact with their fans during the podcast, which is super cool, but some people just don’t want to do video.

[00:20:39] So that would be a great alternative. I love that 

[00:20:41] Pat: yeah, I totally agree with that. And even with our voice thing we, often get the feedback and we’re looking into this too. We started with, we wanted to encourage fans to give their audio message because Podcasts medium, this formats doing we’re trying to coin this term audio drop, right?

[00:20:57] If you could feature your fan with an audio drop, that’s really, useful. And so we really want to encourage audio, we are finding some fans are reticent to even. Hear themselves being recorded. So yeah some text-based features might be interesting too, but just going back to I love to do, I’d love to ask podcasters what fan engagement features what would you like to see on a fan page?

[00:21:19] Brittany: Oh, that’s perfectly good question. That is a really good question. 

[00:21:22] Pat: Putting you on the spot. I know you don’t think,

[00:21:24] Rob: I wish there was a little button I could use to shock people when they don’t engage, but that’s probably not possible. I feel like we do a lot of outreach and then some, of the listeners it’s you can see the numbers. I know you’re listening. Why aren’t you doing anything?

[00:21:36] Like what’s it going to take? We’re grasping for literally nothing. That doesn’t answer the question, but yeah, I like the chat idea to Brittany’s point the video is something, a lot of us don’t love. I’m one of those people. 

[00:21:48] Brittany: Also, I don’t know, like the de script feature where you can choose like a voice for it to be read in.

[00:21:53] If they don’t want to have their own voice, maybe they could just. Until, like the announcer voice I don’t know, maybe 

[00:21:59] Rob: Interesting. 

[00:22:00] Pat: That could be, yeah. Yeah. 

[00:22:01] Brittany: That’s what I have on the fly for you. 

[00:22:03] Pat: Sorry. And I have to put you on the spot, but it’s actually hard to think.

[00:22:07] What do you want your fans to do? So hopefully we could. Take those decisions away from the podcaster cause that’s what a lot of podcasts, websites try to do, they give you all the creative freedom you can possibly have, but once you ask what podcaster, what do you want your fan to do?

[00:22:24] It’s becomes a little bit of a harder question to answer. It seems. Like it might be straightforward, but maybe it’s because there’s so much freedom. It could be anything that a lot of podcasts is going up doing, maybe nothing. But yeah. I’m curious. Yeah. If you ever have any ideas, I’d love to hear them because we want to have a suite of tools right.

[00:22:42] At the end of the day that you don’t have to think about all you have to do is just turn it on and tell your fans to go do that thing. 

[00:22:48] Brittany: Yeah. So what you’re describing and what I’ve seen and you calling it a fan page almost makes me think of like my space back in the day, like how it used to be.

[00:22:56] I dunno, you’re looking for like your top eight friends so that’s [00:23:00] what I think about. And also just, I don’t know. I remember also when I was younger, like calling into the radio, that was super cool. So I think the audio thing, I do love that. 

[00:23:07] Rob: I love that I’ll let Brittany suggestions or dating both of us, 

[00:23:10] Pat: by the way.

[00:23:11] I love that you’re making that analogy. Cause at first I was a little afraid people would, but I’m like, you know what? I think there’s something about this retro, like even a wall is interesting. I think technology has gone so fast that we forgot some of these things we had a decade ago are still cool.

[00:23:29] They, could still be really useful for some industries. And I think podcastings is one of them where because you, don’t want to say things went so fast. Like social media went so fast that everyone started quite honestly using Facebook pages. But when you ask a podcast or if I bet you, if you survey 10 podcasts or if they have an active Facebook page today, that number is probably.

[00:23:49] Less than 10% because it just wasn’t on-trend and they went on a trend because Facebook, as a platform started clamping down they don’t give you access to your fans. And that’s what [00:24:00] we want to change where there was still something cool about these retro. Not that we’re retro, we’re pretty modern, but there was some cool ethos about it that you create some space on the web for, people to engage your people, to engage and somewhere along the way that concept got lost. If I were to ask is there something called the podcast fanpage today? I think I can’t think of one. I think w we wouldn’t be one of the few players out there.

[00:24:24] And yeah, we’re excited to bring that back if you call it, bringing it back. Cause I think there was something. That, you’re referring to, there was a phenomena like some years ago that just got lost 

[00:24:36] Brittany: will, the human aspect got left out of some of the creation of this.

[00:24:40] So I think that’s part of it. Like I said, just having the engagement option, hearing your name on the radio was so exciting. So hearing her name on a podcast is also very exciting especially just with everyone. Being an influencer these days. It’s a little piece of that, right? 

[00:24:52] Pat: Yep. Exactly.

[00:24:53] Brittany: I’m going to switch gears just a little bit, and I know that you don’t have a podcast, but are you planning on starting one? 

[00:25:00] Pat: Good question yeah. I started one when we launched our Podcast Movement last year.

[00:25:05] But like mini podcast stories. I pod faded pretty much the day I launched. So the full story is we launched the. Or I, as I say, we, I should really say I for this one, I’m the host of a podcast called podcast growth hacks. And I launched my trailer episode just in time for the last podcast conference in August when we launched Podinbox.

[00:25:27] And just like any busy entrepreneur building a startup from scratch a bootstrap, I just had. Let it go. It was just too much work to do both, but now as the product is pretty mature now I can focus my energies back on different marketing channels and it consider a podcast, one of the marketing channels, so yeah.

[00:25:46] Reinvigorating that idea bringing it back up. And I probably banked about four or five episodes already, so I’m just trying to decide what’s a good day to launch. I’m trying to set up, is it before PodFest or maybe after PodFest? So that’s coming around again. That’s called podcast growth hacks where I talk to podcasters and learn what they did to get to where they are.

[00:26:06] Brittany: I love that. So it’ll be out in the summer is what you’re saying. 

[00:26:10] Pat: Yeah, I’ll definitely, probably June 1st is the date. I’m thinking, 

[00:26:15] Brittany: okay. I like it. I like it. So we’ll be able to put that in the show notes, people will be able to link out to that and be able to find you, which is exciting.

[00:26:22] If people would like to check out Podinbox, where should they go? 

[00:26:27] Pat: Sure. Just go to podinbox.com. That’s a podinbox. com and yeah, you can sign up for a free account. We released our free accounts about two months ago and it’s the upticks been really good before that it was only paid.

[00:26:41] Being able to give a free plan was pretty important to us. The reason why we waited for awhile was we just wanted to make sure the product was just completely right. And we knew what hobbyists want. That’s what we call our free plan, the hobby plan. So we always encourage check out the free hobby plan first.

[00:26:57] See if it’s right for you. Because it does take some time to start getting fans engaged. We say like right around the fourth episode, When you’ve mentioned it, maybe four times then people will start leaving messages and things like that, or a donation. So yeah, sign up for free hobby plan. The best way to check it out. 

[00:27:13] Brittany: I love it. Thank you so much, Pat, for being here. We appreciate it. It was a fun interview. 

[00:27:17] Pat: Hey, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. 

[00:27:19] Brittany: Absolutely. Please listen, like, and follow the podcast and we’ll see you guys next week. 

[00:00:00] Rob: starting a podcast can be a lot of fun. I think a lot of people we’ve met in the podcasting space had really ambitious goals. We’ve met people, who’ve done amazing things. We’ve also met people who burn out really fast. And so today we’re going to talk about expectations versus reality in the podcast space.

[00:00:19] So let’s start with one that I think lot of people run into and that is that with the different services we’ll pick on apple and Spotify, because they’re two of the big players. The expectation is you are going to be ranking in top 10 immediately that you’re just going to soar up to the top of the charts.

[00:00:37] The reality is not to crush dreams, but it is a lot of work. A lot of self promotion has to go into that. And to a degree, they don’t really give you much attention until you have a pretty decent episode catalog. So unless you’re a celebrity or an influencer with quite the following for the regular people like us out there.

[00:00:59] [00:01:00] It’s a lot of work, so you’ve got to be in it for the long haul. 

[00:01:03] Brittany: Yes, I would a hundred percent agree with that. And I would just say for an example, for Spotify, you have to have a hundred episodes in order to start ranking with them. So consistency is key people. I know it’s hard to continue to release episodes, but it’s so important.

[00:01:19] And it’s going to be one of the big things that sets you apart from other people who maybe aren’t consistent in releasing episodes. And also. Give up and then they restart and it just really impacts their audience following. So just something to remember.

[00:01:33] Rob: All right, next one. Each of your episodes is going to have thousands of downloads. Now we’re not easy. We’re not all Joe Rogan, so that’s not realistic right off the bat, but you can get there, but. Let’s take some stats that we got off, the small business genius website, what they listed that the most successful podcast episodes out there get around 50,000 downloads within a 30 day period.

[00:01:57] And those are really successful podcasts [00:02:00] and episode with 9,000 downloads can earn a place in the top 5% of podcasts and 3,400 downloads puts you in the top 10%. the average podcast racks up 141 downloads in its first day. So if you’re a brand new podcaster and in the first 30 days, yes, first 30 days.

[00:02:18] Thank you. If you’re a new podcast or, and you put your episode out and it’s day one and you only see one, two or 10 downloads or streams or plays, depending on your service providers reporting, don’t lose hope. You just got to keep promoting, put it out on social, get active on Twitter, on all of the different platforms and promote the hell out of yourself.

[00:02:39] Brittany: Absolutely. And we actually talked to a guy that built his whole business and whole podcast network off of social media. So if you haven’t listened to that episode, it’s our episode with Tom Fox. He is incredible. And also listen to our episode on cross promos because that will help you out as well 

[00:02:56] Rob: and correct me if I’m wrong, but Tom Fox, he not [00:03:00] only built an entire network of podcasts.

[00:03:02] He is one of those that has over 30,000 downloads a month. So he is one of those top groups with his network. 

[00:03:09] Brittany: You are correct. You are absolutely correct there. And I think the big thing for me and I hope he doesn’t feel offended if I say this. he’s not like a 25 year old dude.

[00:03:17] Like he’s an older gentleman that built this podcast network. And he said that his daughter had to help him originally show him how to use social media so that he could do it. But , he did it. 

[00:03:26] Rob: He did. And you know what I remembered in that episode, he ended the episode with some excellent advice that I think applies to people here.

[00:03:32] And it’s get off your ass and do it. Those are his words. So we will insert them here because it is still very valid and good advice.

[00:03:40] Brittany: A hundred percent. 

[00:03:41] Rob: All right, next one. And Brittany, this probably applies to you because you get to enjoy this. And this goes to new podcasters who are super ambitious, and this is that you’re going to be producing several or multiple episodes a week.

[00:03:54] For podcasters that are doing this as a hobby and they have a full-time job and they’re doing [00:04:00] episodes that are 20, 30, 40 or minutes longer. Is that realistic or what should they be setting up as their schedule for success? 

[00:04:08] Brittany: It could be realistic if they’re staying up all night to get these edited. 

[00:04:11] a little caffeine goes a long way.

[00:04:13] Brittany: So I think it takes four times the length of your episode to edit the content. And I think that there are some of us that are more of a perfectionist and some of us that are like, oh, it’s fine. I don’t care. But the quality of your episodes is really key to your success because , if it’s purely an audio podcast, you have to have really great audio because people don’t want to listen to anything that has a buzzing or.

[00:04:35] constant, annoying little ticks in it because it’s not fun to listen to. Whereas with video, you’re more likely to get away with it because there is a visual component that you also see. So it doesn’t take away from it, if that makes sense. So I think it’s super important that you plan accordingly.

[00:04:50] Brittany: And even if you only release an episode once a month release an episode once a month, stick to it but don’t get overly ambitious in the beginning, because if you think that you’re [00:05:00] going to release five episodes a week work, full-time get guests on all of that stuff. It’s not realistic.

[00:05:07] Although if you are looking for guests, check out the PodOps App, we can help you out there. Save you some time. 

[00:05:13] Rob: I love those promos. And actually I’ll give a little insight into our other podcasts because we have another one called PoDrops where I think we were a little overly ambitious because they’re only 60 second episodes.

[00:05:25] And we decided to do 100 of them and they are all kinds of podcasting tips. First of all, scripting a hundred different episodes that were all different. Podcasting tips was a challenge all on its own. But then recording them, producing them, scheduling them, promoting them. That has been quite the task. they’re pretty much done and out into the world.

[00:05:46] And I think we have maybe 50 or 45 days left of new episodes before the first season wraps, but there’s scenario where we could take our own advice. 

[00:05:55] Brittany: Absolutely. At least we’ve done podcasting before. I will say that at least we weren’t [00:06:00] super overly ambitious in that. 

[00:06:01] Rob: Yeah, we went for one minute episodes.

[00:06:03] Not 20 minutes. Thank God. 

[00:06:05] Brittany: Yes. You’re telling me I do the editing. 

[00:06:07] Okay. Sorry. Yeah, I feel bad. It was my idea to do a hundred episodes. So sorry about that. 

[00:06:12] Yeah. I don’t think you are, but that’s okay. 

[00:06:14] Rob: Changing to a happier topic. Graphic design for your cover art. This one, I think could be debated as I create our cover art, but I am not a traditionally trained graphic designer.

[00:06:26] So a lot of people think you don’t need a graphic designer to create your cover art. And it’s true to a degree, but it depends where you’re getting it from or how it’s being produced. We’re seeing a lot of stuff come off of tools like Canva, which it’s a good tool if you’re brand new, but you need to be careful because if you’re using it, other people are using it.

[00:06:47] And there’s a chance that somebody is going to have the same cover as you or a similar cover because it is mass produced artwork. if you have the ability to work with a graphic designer, or you can engage a professional, it is [00:07:00] worth that investment, not just from having the really polished, great looking cover, but also knowing that you have something that’s a unique work of art that nobody else is going to have.

[00:07:09] And, if they do, you can always Sue the hell out of them. 

[00:07:12] Brittany: Correct. and I, on that note, I would say cover is super important because. Rob and, I’ve talked about this in other episodes, but there are some cover art that looks like acid wash from like the eighties, MTV style stuff. And it’s like a total turnoff to me.

[00:07:27] if they have that cover, I literally will not listen. So make sure that you’re thinking about your audience and what that looks like. And maybe some people are into it, but I would say that’s probably a very niche audience. 

[00:07:38] Rob: True podcasts are just like books. And even though we’re not supposed to, we all judge a podcast by its cover.

[00:07:44] Brittany: Absolutely. 

[00:07:45] Rob: Brittany, we had a, I’m going to say not a debate, but maybe not an agreement with a previous guest on transcripts. What are your thoughts about transcripts? 

[00:07:54] Brittany: Listen people you may not like doing them. However, Sirius XM [00:08:00] had their podcasts not have transcripts and they were sued because it’s not in ADA compliance.

[00:08:06] We are going to see this turn into a requirement for podcasts. It helps your SEO just do it. Get used to it now, and then it’ll make your life way less painful in the future. if you’re looking for a good editing tool with transcription descript, I will always plug this because it is so helpful.

[00:08:23] You do have to correct the transcript. However, it’s not that bad and it does make your life easier. 

[00:08:28] Rob: I agree. And as the person who plugs it into the website and, we both focused on SEO, it really does make a difference. If you give your individual episodes, their own pages on your website, the problem with your player.

[00:08:41] Is it doesn’t really have anything in it that Google or Bing or Yahoo can look at when they index your site and say, oh, this is rich content. I want to put it here. They can pull the player in now or your episode into search results, but that doesn’t help your website. So that transcript, the text [00:09:00] is content.

[00:09:00] So it’s a great thing. You want it for your website, even if you hate doing it. 

[00:09:05] Brittany: A hundred percent agree. And you just touched on one thing that I think is super important that people overlook, which is actually having a website. Do you want to touch on that? 

[00:09:12] Rob: Yes, I actually, I read a very long Twitter thread.

[00:09:16] I went a little too far down the rabbit hole yesterday on somebody who posted, you don’t need a fucking website for your podcast, their words quote. And so I read all of the comments cause I was like, this is intriguing. who would think you don’t need a website. I would say it’s about 50, 50 split on that thread of people.

[00:09:32] Totally agreeing that you don’t need a website. They’re saying people are consuming it through audio. They’re listening with their headphones. They don’t need a website, rely on the directories on apple, on Spotify, Google, let them feed it to you. And then the other half were pushing the fact that, if you’re a podcaster, you’re a brand.

[00:09:50] You need a home for your website. You need a home for your content. You need a home for yourself. The website is the home. Yes. You want your podcasts in directories, [00:10:00] but you also should be writing blogs. You might be writing white papers. You might be publishing books. All of that is content that you can now pull together in your website, alongside your podcasts and service, potentially multiple audiences.

[00:10:15] So you might have a group of people who read your blog, who don’t listen to your podcast. Vice-versa. So if it’s all there, you can feed every audience, all the content in one. Great serving. 

[00:10:26] Brittany: Yeah. And just one more thing to touch on. You always want to own your own content. Therefore, having a website is key for that.

[00:10:32] Otherwise you have some controversy on your podcast. Say you get bigger, people pull it down off of some of the directories. You still have your website to fall back on. 

[00:10:41] Rob: Absolutely. there is something else. We will not dive into that. If you’re a self hosted WordPress site or something like that, those are important things to do.

[00:10:50] Talk to us about that. We’ll help you. We help lots of people migrate off of wordpress.com and Wix. And, what’s the other one? Squarespace. Yeah, those are all [00:11:00] really closed ecosystems. They drive me nuts because they’re designed to pyramid scheme people. I love WordPress, but self hosted. WordPress people 

[00:11:07] Brittany: I think those are really great tips. Rob, do you have anything else you’d like to add? 

[00:11:11] Rob: No. Sorry. I got all spicy on that last one. I feel like you need a cocktail now

[00:11:14] for reals. and if you have any questions, check out our website, the blogs are all listed there. Please listen, likeand follow the podcast and we’ll see you guys next week.

[00:00:00] Rob: Thanks for tuning in today. We are joined by the highly accomplished Tom Fox, lawyer, author, and creator of the compliance podcast network home to more than 40 unique shows. Tom, thanks for spending some time with us today,

[00:00:11] Tom: Rob. My pleasure. Thank you for inviting me. 

[00:00:13] Brittany: Yeah. So Tom, you’re an attorney. Can you talk about how you got into podcasting?

[00:00:18] sure. so in my latest incarnation, as a business professional, I was laid up from an accident and needed to, number one, go back to work. number two. market myself. And, the only time I left my house was to go to physical therapy. I had a, some banged up legs from a car accident and I started doing social media and this was 2010.

[00:00:41] Tom: And at that point, my daughter had to get me set up on LinkedIn and Facebook. I was so incompetent, but, I started blogging and the podcasting was an extension of that social media outreach. And blogging.

[00:00:52] Brittany: That’s awesome. So you started a podcast network. When did that start? And what was the motivation behind that? Because that’s a big [00:01:00] undertaking. 

[00:01:00] Tom: So I’ve had a podcast started in 2012 and it percolated along. And I got the broad idea about 2016 or 2017, first of all, I podcast in a very niche industry anti-corruption compliance.

[00:01:11] And so I went around to, all of the big players in that space who were either. Conference organizations or institutes and said, Hey, let’s start a compliance podcast network. We’ll put all our podcasts in one place. And, compliance professionals they’ll have one resource they can go to for kind of all things compliance and I could get no interest.

[00:01:33] And so I, just decided to do it myself.

[00:01:36] Rob: We’re both big fans of that. Cause if you can’t get somebody to do what you want, you do it yourself. 

[00:01:40] Tom: Yeah. 

[00:01:41] Rob: So you are also the author of an award-winning FCPA compliance and ethics blog. And you have a best-selling book. Did all of that come prior to launching the compliance podcast network? 

[00:01:53] Tom: So when the award for the blog site in the early part of last decade, I’ve now published [00:02:00] 22 books.

[00:02:01] I think, I have one coming out in May and I can’t remember if it’s 22 or 23. so I’ve always written and it’s actually Rob one, seamless. Production line of content marketing for me. So I can take a blog and I can create a podcast from it. Or conversely, I can take a podcast and create a blog. Then I can take four or five of those blogs and create a white paper.

[00:02:24] And at the end of the year, I have enough for a book, and that same process works. If you want to write a specific subject matter. So I’ve written the only single author handbook and compliance on how to design create and implement a best practice compliance program. And I literally sat down for one year and every day wrote a blog on some topic of compliance.

[00:02:47] Then I would record that blog in audio format, and I did a daily podcast for one year on. How to build a compliance program, but it was all part of the production process because I could edit, by [00:03:00] reading the blog post that helped my editing process. So for me, it is one massive content creation machine that I can use in a variety of formats.

[00:03:10] Brittany: That’s amazing. And I have to say, if you’re writing it every single day and doing the audio format. How do you not lose sight of content, that’s so much content? How are you coming up with that every single day? 

[00:03:21] Tom: There’s no ending of content available, early on, I bought a bunch of compliance books and read them to try to get up to speed in this area.

[00:03:31] And I could literally take a book, drop it on the floor, and whatever page it fell open to, I would write a blog on that. And what I discovered is if you write a blog about somebody’s book and you cite to them, they love it. I wrote a whole blog post on Brittany Brown and her book here it is.

[00:03:47] Here’s the link to it on Amazon. Please go check it out. And here’s why I think you should check it out. nobody says no to that. And then as my writing evolved, it became current events. And I’m a big history [00:04:00] guy and I’m a big rock and roll guy. And so then I started writing about this day in history.

[00:04:04] So what happened on this day in history and how did it relate to this compliance topic? Or I would write about an album or a song or a group, or now unfortunately rockers from the sixties and seventies who pass away and I talk about them. And I’ve never had a problem with topics. 

[00:04:20] Rob: I think Brittany speaking from some experience there, there’ve been days when we’re like, hi, I need a blog topic.

[00:04:25] This is rough. So I might try your throw the book on the floor and open it to the that’s my new topic. I divulge, so you’re doing a ton of content to write the blogs, create audio, come up with white papers, write books. Is your podcast network, the main place that you’re promoting and advertising that, or is there a complete strategy of pushing this out to social or any other marketing components behind it.

[00:04:51] Tom: So there are multiple marketing components behind this. I am huge, social media Maven I’m on social every day. I post on Twitter. I post on LinkedIn. I currently post on Facebook, although that may end June one. and I spent a lot of time on, social media that has created for me.

[00:05:09] I have the largest social media presence in my area of compliance. And what I have is the biggest distribution platform. So if I want to get a message out, I can get the message out. If you want to get a message out, I can get a message out to you, to my listeners. I stumbled on Twitter in literally on 2010, Twitter actually put me on the compliance map.

[00:05:30] I tell people that. And so I’m a huge fan of Twitter. I don’t know if I will be if Elon Musk buys the company or not, but I’ve had. Just an unending amount of success with that simple tool Twitter. now I think LinkedIn is probably used by more business professionals, but I created a worldwide legal practice out of my home, laid up on a Walker using Twitter.

[00:05:54] And that’s the power of social media. at least it wasn’t 2010 and I think it still is now. 

[00:05:59] Rob: I think [00:06:00] that’s going to be the soundbite that we actually steal from this episode. And I’m going to use that to market, to clients who are like, I don’t want to be on social. That’s a whole different topic, but that is very impressive.

[00:06:09] Tom: If they are not availing themselves of the free opportunities on social media, they’ve essentially cut off their right or left arm. And they’re only working with half of what they can do. When I started my practice, I was laid up from an accident and I had no income. And so whatever I did, it had to be no cost to me.

[00:06:29] and literally I did all of that marketing at no cost. And so I know how it’s possible. And if you don’t use the social that’s available to you, you’re never going to get your message out. 

[00:06:39] Rob: I completely agree with you now. For a podcast that’s interested in becoming a part of the compliance podcast network family.

[00:06:47] Is there certain criteria if, someone to wear to come and pitch you a show? my email, just schedule a time. Let’s talk. I would love for people to come on the compliance podcast network. It’s broadened out. a little bit broader than simply compliance. Now it’s a more of a B2B network, but I’m always looking for new shows to come on 30,000 daily followers.

[00:07:08] Tom: So you can get your message out. 

[00:07:10] Rob: And do you also do show production? Cause I know you have your podcasts, but is it two-sided where if they’re bringing a show to your network, they’re doing production, or do you do both sides of that? I just started doing the production side of things and that’s in a service offering where I do a branded podcast at one for a law firm.

[00:07:28] Tom: That’s a turnkey service. I record their lawyers and turn it a fully produced back to them. And it goes out on my network in addition to their own social media channels as well.

[00:07:38] Brittany: Very cool. So, the reason that I was introduced to you is because we do a networking with the pod Fest and they’ve been doing the weekly event. And something that really stood out to me was that you actually do the pay it forward program, where you donate tickets. So other people that may not have the opportunity to go due to finances are able to attend this podcast event in [00:08:00] Florida. I think that is so generous. And I’m just curious, why do you feel like this is so important? 

[00:08:05] Tom: So I went to pod Fest the first time, I think, in 2017. And I’ve been practicing law nearly 40 years and going to conferences that entire time and that pod Fest.

[00:08:16] was literally the best conference I’ve ever attended. I felt like it was designed for me as it, me personally, that’s the kind of job Chris and his team did. And that’s when I was introduced to his pay it forward program Podfest global is the entrepreneurs. It is the solo podcasters. It is the small business pod-casters place.

[00:08:37] And there are a lot of people who are just getting started in podcasts. They’re doing it as a second job as a sideline or a something. And it’s a way for me to really make a difference. In that number one, number two, I sat at a table with, there were three college students there who had received tickets and, Their enthusiasm and their energy was [00:09:00] so infectious that, they were soaking it all in.

[00:09:04] And I absolutely love that. And I just thought if, if I can bring help, bring some of that energy to a conference, it’s just great. And number three, and Chris tells the story of, a woman was going taking the cab from the airport to the hotel, told the cabbie she had received a free ticket.

[00:09:22] Somehow she got the cabbie hooked up with a ticket and that guy ended up starting his own podcast. and that’s the kind of power of pay it forward. I’m the pay it forward ambassador for PodFest. I donate a thousand dollars every year to pay it forward. Chris Krimitsos then I think doubles it, with his own match.

[00:09:41] And we’re able to bring 10, 20, 30, 50 people to Podfest. You may not be able, to go because we’re providing them tickets. 

[00:09:49] Brittany: I love that this will be my first year at podcast. And I’m super excited, especially with how you just described it and oh my gosh, it’s going to be amazing. So obviously you’re very passionate about this podcasting space.

[00:09:59] [00:10:00] What is your favorite thing about the podcasting arena? my favorite thing is I get to be cool people like you all. I’ve always written a lot and I’ve always, as a lawyer read a lot,from academia down to practical papers, but the podcast format. Do what exactly what we’re doing now have a conversation.

[00:10:16] Tom: I tell people it’s a virtual cup of coffee with Tom because 95% of my podcast are all online. I have one local podcast I do where we go to Starbucks. Literally now have a cup of coffee and do a podcast. it’s very informal. It’s very conversational. It has upped my knowledge in my field. and I thought I knew it a lot.

[00:10:35] I talked to the top experts in my field every day, multiple times a day. And so I really have learned more and I was very tactically focused. I wrote these tactical kind of handbooks on how to do it, but talking to so many people, I now have a much better appreciation of the strategic element.

[00:10:54] Of compliance is a business process. the reasons I had all those questions about, data governance, data management, because I see that as a part of the business process of compliance and I’m able to bring that part of it to a discussion now and see how that may not think that relates to anti-corruption compliance, but it absolutely does.

[00:11:13] And I see that now because I have the chance to visit with people like you guys and explore these topics in depth.

[00:11:19] Rob: you touched on this, so compliance, that area we’re in it makes for what I would think is a pretty niche podcast, which from a marketing perspective is great because you want to be unique. It makes you stand out when it comes to booking guests, has that made it difficult to find the right experts to get on the show?

[00:11:37] Or is it, easier than ever, because you can always have the right expert for the right topic 

[00:11:41] Tom: I get five pitches a day. 

[00:11:43] Rob: Dang. emails and emails saying, Hey, can we get on your podcast? And I’ll almost always say, yes, they have to be really far out. Side of what I think the audience would like, but I turned down a lot of people, so no, but early on my pitch was the following.

[00:12:00] would you come on my podcast and talk about yourself? Everybody said yes. nobody says no to that. And I’m going to send you the list of questions about yourself for approval in advance, okay. I was able to get going in now. It’s just runs itself and then at least on that score.

[00:12:14] Brittany: Okay. Since that wasn’t a struggle for you, what has been the biggest challenge in podcasting for you?

[00:12:19] Tom: one was, I finally last year around this time hired someone to help me with my social media, because I was spending four to five hours a day. I would get up at four or five in the morning and do all my social media, which meant LinkedIn Twitter, Facebook for every podcast, three tweets a day, audio grams for every podcast.

[00:12:40] And it was just killing me to create that much. So I finally hired someone to do that. that was, one of my biggest struggles was doing all that. The second thing is, unfortunately too arrogant enough to believe I keep everything in my head. So I sometimes. I don’t write down what I’ve scheduled, and I get into scheduling conflicts that are largely my own creation.

[00:13:02] so I’m keeping it all in my head, but the way I’ve worked that out is, every podcast goes up on a certain day. So I know if it’s like today, it’s Monday and I know which five go up today. And so on Sunday, I think through, okay. Do I have everything ready for Monday? And then this afternoon, I’ll start thinking about tomorrow.

[00:13:21] so those are kinda the two, the biggest struggles. and then, I have to write, so I have to sit down and write up all of these blog posts around these podcasts. So it’s just work, but I absolutely love doing it. And, so the great thing for me is because I still see myself as a lawyer who podcasts, out on a sideline, the podcast to me is just fun.

[00:13:44] Tom: So I don’t mind doing it.

[00:13:45] Rob: All right. Speaking of just fun or things for fun. If you were going to do an all new podcast completely outside your current subject, matter of expertise, what would it be about? I’ll tell you the next four or five I’ve got, , next month. It’s the hundredth [00:14:00] anniversary of James Joyce Ulysses.

[00:14:02] Tom: So I’m going to do a series on Ulysses and compliance. Last year was the 500th anniversary of Dante’s Inferno. So I’m going to do a series on Dante’s Inferno and compliance. I’m going to do a series on how the business world changed. Because of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, that, and, the last one is going to be, the changes at the board of directors level around compliance.

[00:14:25] I generally try to do, the things that really get me juiced up. Are these literature or history? ties to compliance. A colleague of mine. We are in the middle of the. Full a Marvel cinematic universe movies. And we’re up to, Dr. Strange the first one and that means we’ve got Dr.

[00:14:45] Tom: Strange Ant Man and the Wasp, Infinity Game, and the End Game and Infinity War. And then we’re going to start on the next round of movies, plus the TV shows. my strength and my weaknesses, is the same thing, I have an on button and an off switch and [00:15:00] nothing in between. So once I start I’m committed and I should also say in, June one starts, a 70, 80 episode daily series on star Trek, the original series.

[00:15:11] So every day, for 80 days that 79 episodes plus an introduction, I’m going to do the on the intersection of star Trek, the original series in compliance. 

[00:15:20] Brittany: Okay. I love that you turn compliance into something really interesting by relating it to other things, because, when I hear compliance, I’m like, oh man.

[00:15:27] But that sounds really interesting and fun to listen to. So kind of exciting. So if someone is going to start a podcast, what would be the number one piece of advice you would give to them?

[00:15:36] Tom: Get off your ass and start a podcast. Don’t give me an excuse that I don’t have a mic, or I don’t have the software.

[00:15:44] I don’t have the time. I don’t know how to do it. Get off your ass and start your podcast. 

[00:15:50] Brittany: Okay. I love that. Amazing. So if people want to reach out to you, where’s the best place. For them to get ahold of you?

[00:15:57] Tom: If they want to find out more about the compliance podcast, networking, [00:16:00] go to 

[00:16:00] www. Compliance podcast network.net.

[00:16:03] If you want to email me, you can reach me at tfox@tfoxlaw.com. I’m at LinkedIn at Thomas R. Fox. 

[00:16:11] Brittany: Thank you so much for joining us today, Tom. This was awesome. 

[00:16:13] My pleasure. Thank you guys. 

[00:16:15] Please listen, like, and follow the podcast and we’ll see you guys next week.

[00:00:00] Rob: We are talking cross promos and I have to be honest that before we got into podcasting, I didn’t really know what that meant from the podcasting perspective. Exactly. I knew what it was from a more traditional or digital marketing area. And Brittany had to educate me on that a little.

[00:00:16] So Brittany, could you do us all a favor and maybe just explain high-level what cross promos are in the podcasting space. 

[00:00:25] Brittany: Yeah. So with podcasting, the number one question you get is how do you grow your audience? So cross promos are a great way to do that. And basically that means you are getting some sort of promotion off of another podcast and you are promoting their podcast on your show.

[00:00:42] Therefore you’re getting audience exposure. Potentially more listeners will flock to your podcast because you are mentioned on another podcast because it’s probably the only place you can actually have direct communication with people that actually listen to podcasts, or if you advertise in another [00:01:00] way, they may not be people that are actually your target market and they may not ever listen to a podcast.

[00:01:05] So cross promos are king. 

[00:01:07] Rob: So let’s start with guests because we obviously talk about guests a lot and we have guests on our own show. What is a guest exchange. There’s more to that than just having somebody on your show, because that would include having somebody who’s been on another show. Is that accurate?

[00:01:23] Brittany: Yes. And I think the thing about the guest exchange is that you’re going to both be on each other shows. So you’re both getting the exposure. To each other’s audiences. And you’re also getting content, which we all know content is sometimes hard to come up with. So interviewing someone on your show is a great way to bring in additional content as well as getting that cross promo, because you’re going to promote yourself on their show.

[00:01:44] Right? 

[00:01:45] Rob: Absolutely. And then that in tandem does feed into your social media marketing and your email marketing on both sides. If you’re on my show and I’m on yours. I’m going to be putting you in my social posts. I’m going to tag you when the episode goes out. Hopefully you’re going to do the [00:02:00] same, be kind tag your guests.

[00:02:02] I feel like there’s a better way to say that blockbuster did it really well back in the day because of rewind. We’re going to work on that tagline and find a way to jam it in here. But we’ll circle back to that. 

[00:02:11] Brittany: You are the king of taglines. I will give you that I have full faith. You’ll make it work. I have all this time on my hands.

[00:02:17] Rob: Why not? 

[00:02:17] Brittany: Yeah. I don’t believe you, but that’s okay. 

[00:02:20] Rob: Okay. Shout outs. So shout out seem pretty straightforward. That would be us giving another podcast a little call-out or a promo within our own podcasts. Is that accurate? 

[00:02:32] Brittany: That is accurate. And the strategy behind the shout outs is finding similar shows to yours, with similar audiences and asking if they would be willing to do a shout out for you and you would do a shout out for them.

[00:02:43] So I think that’s, it’s like getting an ad without paying for it because you’re both benefiting. but if you go to a show that’s way larger than yours, you’re less likely to get them to promo your show because they probably actually have advertisers that are paying a lot for those spots. So just something to think about.

[00:02:59] Rob: Fair. And I think [00:03:00] you, bring up a point there that a shout-out is not the same as an ad, the pre mid and post roll ads. They’re completely different ideas. 

[00:03:08] Brittany: Correct. And, although most ads are host read in the podcasting space that is beginning to change. So the shout out would most likely just be.

[00:03:17] either at the end or the beginning or in the middle of the podcast being like, Hey, like I met these people, they have a great podcast. You should check it out. So I think that’s the difference where when it’s an ad, they are getting paid for it. And so bigger shows. They might not be as likely to give you a shout out.

[00:03:33] Rob: Understood. But come on. Big shows, little shows need love too. 

[00:03:36] Brittany: Unfortunately. You know what 

[00:03:38] Rob: Becky works sometimes begging works. Just going to 

[00:03:41] Brittany: say it well, and I will say, there might, don’t not reach out, but don’t expect it.

[00:03:46] ‘ cause you never know how kind someone’s going to be to you because I do know a lot of people in the podcast space are more than willing to help, but at the same time, once you get to a certain point, you almost can’t help everyone because it turns into a can of worms. And then you’re [00:04:00] just like, what does that saying?

[00:04:01] Cut your nose despite your face. Is that the saying? 

[00:04:04] Rob: Yeah. Yeah. I think you nailed it. 

[00:04:06] Brittany: So just keep 

[00:04:07] Rob: that in mind. All right. And then talk to us about dual episodes, because this is a very cool concept. I think. 

[00:04:13] Brittany: So I actually love this concept too, because depending on which side you fall on, you may get an episode from someone that you were interviewed on their show and they actually do all the editing and everything.

[00:04:23] And then you just plug it into your show, which is awesome. Cause we all need content and. it’s a give and take, Sometimes you’ll have to do the editing, but in a lot of cases, if you end up on someone else’s show, they’ll do the editing and you can plug that audio in and so you can add it to your own feed and it becomes an episode for you to push out as well. 

[00:04:40] Rob: And we all know that the production piece can be immensely time consuming. So that sounds like a huge win, especially if you get to be the recipient of the 

[00:04:49] Brittany: episode.

[00:04:49] Absolutely. And even if you wanted to do the dual episode and the guest exchanges, you could almost get. Two episodes for the price of one, right? Because you’re going to take their [00:05:00] episode and put it on your feed because it’s going to be more about them. The other one is going to be more about you.

[00:05:05] I wouldn’t plug them in right next to each other, but I do think that there is some benefit there and that you could use the episode later on. So I think that’s a great option as well.

[00:05:13] Rob: And then for our pod-casters that are listening that are thinking about jumping into the cross promo space. If you were going to give them a tip or point them in the direction of getting started, what is maybe the easiest or best way to dip your toe into this world?

[00:05:31] Brittany: So on like apple podcast, you can look at your podcast and you can see similar shows to yours. So I think that’s one way, I think also Instagram is a great way because I follow some shows that are similar to ours and we’ve asked people to be on our show that have similar podcasts, which is awesome.

[00:05:46] And I think reaching out to them on Instagram is super easy and they can also see your content to see if it jives with their brand, which I think is super cool. So I think there’s some easy options there and you know what? LinkedIn and Twitter are actually great ways to reach out to [00:06:00] people as well. And like I said, most people in the space are super kind and they probably will respond to you even if they don’t go on your show.

[00:06:07] Maybe it’s not a good fit for them at the time. But, I think that’s a great way to start and dip your toe in and it never hurts to ask 

[00:06:14] Rob: all excellent tips and I will tack on that. I completely agree on the Twitter aspect. And for us, that’s been a place where even just having conversations with people, it is a great way to build out your network.

[00:06:26] And that’s something that I know Brittany’s going to talk about in a later episode of networking. keep your social contacts close. Keep your audience closer. Maybe there is something there. 

[00:06:34] Brittany: Yeah absolutely . 

[00:06:36] Rob: I’m really trying to get a tagline out of this episode, if you can’t 

[00:06:38] Brittany: tell. I think that’s the thing also interact with your audience and even ask them what other shows are you guys listening to?

[00:06:45] Because I think that gives you a good insight as to the dynamics of your audience, which I think is also good for you to know, , regardless, if you reach out to the other shows or not. I think it’s good for you to know what else your listeners are interested in. 

[00:06:55] Agreed.

[00:06:55] Excellent tips. 

[00:06:56] Okay. I think we should wrap here. Thanks for tuning in. [00:07:00] Please listen, like and follow the podcast and we’ll see you guys next week. 

[00:00:00] Rob: Today we are joined by Cathleen Toomey the host of seniority authority. Kathleen’s thank you so much for being with us today.

[00:00:06] Cathleen: I’m thrilled to be here. 

[00:00:08] Rob: Now I love what you say about your podcast on your website. It exists because of cocktail parties as a quick backstory for our listener, we met at podcast movement evolution.

[00:00:18] So you may have guessed that with that line. you’re speaking my language. I liked myself a good cocktail, but can you expand on that for us? Just a bit and how your podcasts actually came from cocktail party. Absolutely. And I have to say one of the highlights of podcast movement was meeting Rob and Brittany, completely coincidentally because,it was quite a night.

[00:00:40] Cathleen: We had an, a lot of fun. I live in a fairly small town, Exeter, New Hampshire, and I’ve worked at a retirement community for. 15 years I’m in marketing, but everybody knows me as a person who works in this retirement community. So a couple of years ago, pre COVID when we [00:01:00] all would go to cocktail parties and dinner parties, I noticed the people started pulling me aside and they’d say, Hey, I think my mom is losing her memory.

[00:01:09] How do I know if it’s something serious or is. To be age-related and then to be asked, would pull me aside and say, oh, I just found out that my dad needs assisted living. What is assisted living? And what’s a good assisted living place. So I realized that if all these people are my age, a boomer. Are starting to have questions.

[00:01:30] Then a lot of people are starting to have questions because what I would do is I’d go back, find somebody at Riverwoods, who is smart, get the answer and call the person back. And I thought, why not amplify this? Because we are in this total revolution of aging where people are living longer than they ever expected.

[00:01:50] And. Adult children, which is an oxymoron, but it makes sense who are 50 and 60 and their parents are older. Suddenly [00:02:00] their thrust into trying to navigate a world that nobody ever taught them about. So that’s why cocktail parties, because if my friends were starting to ask these questions, I don’t have that many friends.

[00:02:11] So everybody else must be having this same quick. And the reason I started a podcast is because that’s where the world is. You guys know that you’re in this world, people are listening to podcasts. They’re not watching scheduled TV. They’re not perusing magazines and newspapers as much podcasts are where people are going for entertainment and information.

[00:02:35] So that’s why I started seniority.

[00:02:37] Brittany: I love it. 

[00:02:38] And I just have a couple of questions. Number one. So as you’re talking to these people and I just went through something similar where, I had a 98 year old great grandmother and, we were going through the whole process of what do we do?

[00:02:50] Cause she’s lived on her own for so long. How do you navigate this? And one of the questions that I was going to ask you, because when we had talked at person, you were [00:03:00] talking about some of the myths that. Exist in this industry. And one of them was the deodorant thing. I just remember that. I don’t know why, but what are some of the common myths that you like to debunk on your podcast as you’re interviewing guests?

[00:03:13] oh my gosh. How much time do we have Brittany? A lot. A lot of, there’s a lot of myths about aging and, this is my work, my vocation, but what I love to do is I love to educate people. So I’ve worked in higher education prior to retirement communities. And I love the fact that people, are still hungry to learn.

[00:03:36] Cathleen: So the things that they have always assumed are for the most part incorrect And combined naturally working for Riverwoods because we are what’s called a continuing care retirement community or a CCRC. Very few people understand what that is. So everything that I do has to start with an explanation of what a CCRC is, but one of the things that I think is [00:04:00] biggest

[00:04:00] disservice we do to ourselves. Is this dated assumption that you are over the hill when you’re 40 and I’m so obsessed with this. I did a TEDx talk on it and, and all of the birthday cards where you, that you, when you go into a store are doom and gloom and they’re all, oh, you’re 40 or over the hill.

[00:04:21] When, in actuality, in today’s. Terminology people are living on average to 84. And if you’ve lived to 84, you’re going to live to 92. If you live to 92, you’re going to live. Four more years after that, or like your great-grandmother more and why can’t we turn that assumption around and say, oh my gosh, thank god I’m 40, what a cool thing?

[00:04:44] Or I’m 50 or I’m 60. I want to change the way the world thinks about aging because aging is a gift that not everyone gets to unwrap. Not everyone gets to be. The age you are. So stop whining about it and [00:05:00] embrace it at you’re on the right side of the grass and look at opportunities, to change the way you think about aging.

[00:05:08] There’s a new book that just came out by Becca levy. She is a professor at Harvard and it’s called, breaking the age code and she did a statistical research on. How your attitude towards aging affects your actual health. And if you change your attitude towards yourself and how you age, you will live longer and you will be healthier.

[00:05:31] it’s crazy. It just came up. So that’s one myth. The other myth is that people assume independence as they get older means staying at home. In your single family home, like your great-grandmother the way it’s going to be independent is I’m going to stay in my home and I’m going to bring everything to me.

[00:05:50] Cathleen: So I’m going to bring a lawnmower. I’m going to bring a roof guy. I’m going to bring somebody to plow somebody, to shovel somebody, to clean my house [00:06:00] if I need it. And if I have a need care, I’m going to bring that to me when actuality. Right now we are experiencing an epidemic of loneliness and isolation among older adults and shutting yourself up in your home.

[00:06:15] Especially when things start to change. You stop driving at night, your neighbors move that used to hang out and new people move in to have young kids that are too busy. You get more isolated, which is bad for your. I maintain that independence as we get older means that you have made the decision about if you need care, where you’re going to get care, how you’re going to pay for it, and who’s going to deliver it.

[00:06:41] And if you have the opportunity to move into some kind of community, you will make more friends, you will have more social interaction. You will have more connection at meals and probably more healthy meals. So I think that’s a big misnomer that to be [00:07:00] independent, I have to stay at home.

[00:07:02] Rob: I’m fascinated by the book you just mentioned, because as you mentioned the concept of changing your thinking on, aging and growing older, I’m actually thinking of my father’s parents who they’re both gone now. They did. At one point they were very active, very healthy people, and it seemed one day they decided in their mid sixties that they were old and suddenly they became old people and they were suddenly using walkers and becoming very slowed down and unhealthy.

[00:07:27] And they deteriorate rapidly after that. And actually just hear you say it I’m like it is that state of mind that they put themselves. it’s really powerful. There’s so much research about the mind body connection and how our mental attitude can change things. And it really has a strong effect.

[00:07:48] if you think about the fact that when social security was created 1935 and it was implemented in 1940. The average life expectancy was 65. [00:08:00] So of course, social security kicks in at 65. today we have 20 more years after 65 to live and we didn’t want to waste those sitting in front of a TV, going to doctor’s offices, whining about are not whining.

[00:08:15] Cathleen: And I don’t mean to, I don’t mean to denigrate that I know. Aging is hard. I know that it brings loss. It brings unimaginable loss, difficult diseases. I am well aware of that, but what I’m trying to say is look at it as an opportunity. Look at it as a way to extend your life. And there is so much more now.

[00:08:39] That we have to offer. When you think about your parents, other than Brittany’s, great-great-grandmother lived at 98, which is very neutral. Typically people didn’t live very long, so their minds went to, okay, I’m retiring. And then I have a couple years to play with the grandkids, do a trip, and then that’s it.

[00:08:58] Today [00:09:00] we are living longer. So we have more opportunity and we have these fabulous new hips and new knees and people have a hip replacement, a knee replacement and keep going. So there’s more opportunity, but our brains haven’t caught up to that longevity yet, they don’t realize that we have all of those opportunities.

[00:09:21] So I think it’s really good to. Start thinking about your lifespan and how you want your health span to match your lifespan. Because you don’t want to be like your dad’s parents and deciding that you’re old and giving it, great. Even though I constantly am saying I’m old and tired, but usually I’m joking, but maybe I’m like, maybe I need to stop that.

[00:09:44] it’s crazy, but it really. Makes a difference that self-talk makes a difference. I talked to all these phenomenal national experts and researchers and scientists, and there is so much we can do with our lifestyle to improve our [00:10:00] health.

[00:10:00] Cathleen: That. I think our generation is open to and wants to hear about. And, older generations are just like, give me a pill, but there is a lot we can do now from a lifestyle perspective that helps 

[00:10:13] Rob: now speaking of experts, you have a lot of very impressive people on your show to answer a wide range of questions.

[00:10:22] how do you find these people? How do you connect with them and find the right expert who can address these, varying multitude of questions about all kinds of different types. 

[00:10:31] that’s the fun part, right? The fun part is searching people down and, sometimes maybe hounding them, or asking multiple people, definitely not saying no, don’t take no for an answer.

[00:10:44] Cathleen: I have a running list of people I’m trying to get on the show. Who’ve said no. They just, haven’t been convinced mostly I do read articles and I read a ton of books and, people who have written new books and that I respect on the [00:11:00] topic like Becca levy from Yale. She has not yet been on the podcast, but I’m gunning for her.

[00:11:06] if you’re listening, Becca, I’m not crazy. and, So if one person is on the show and they know someone else, I asked them to make a warm introduction for me, that typically helps. and once people see, I have interviewed colleagues that they know they’re more open, because what I try to do on the show is my website’s organized by category.

[00:11:27] Cathleen: So we’re all busy. And so if you’re trying to help. Your parents or your grandparents, you’ve also, have your own relationship and family, and you’ve got your work and you’ve got trying to work out and everything is super busy. So you can go on the website and say, I want to look at, interviews, about dementia.

[00:11:46] I want to find interviews about downsizing, wanna find interviews about the science of the brain and the amygdala. fitness and all of them. So it’s very easily organized. So that’s my [00:12:00] goal.

[00:12:00] Rob: Now as podcast show hosts, we never ever play favorites with our guests, but have you ever had a favorite guest on 

[00:12:06] Cathleen: yes, absolutely. I’ve two favorites. First favorite is Dr. Bob Waldinger from Harvard University. He is a director of Harvard study for adult longevity and, he took a chance on me when I was just starting,this is the anniversary of my first year, in podcasting.

[00:12:27] And he agreed to talk to me about this study, which has been going on for 83 years. study that Harvard did, starting 83 years ago to try to find what the secret is to a long, happy and healthy life. And it’s so impressive. and if you want, at the end of the show, I’ll tell you the secret. and, so he took a chance on me.

[00:12:47] And it was a great interview. And then I asked him for a warm introduction to Arthur Brooks who writes for the Atlantic magazine is Harvard’s most popular professor. He teaches [00:13:00] leadership and happiness. he has his own podcast and, he did that warm introduction. And Arthur Brooks was my second favorite because he was incredibly generous and very entertaining.

[00:13:11] And he is a fabulous book out now called from strength to strength, how to find meaning deep purpose and happiness in the second half of life. It’s on the New York times bestseller list. 

[00:13:24] Rob: And we heard a second ago, one of your guests you’re trying to get, but any other goal guests that you’re really trying to land on the show?

[00:13:32] Cathleen: Yes.

[00:13:33] Rob: I’m not against trying to plug people and get them on social media. 

[00:13:36] We’re very good at that.

[00:13:37] Cathleen: Awesome. Awesome. one of my favorite writers and practitioners in the topic of aging is. Atul Gawande who wrote being mortal. He is a phenomenal thinker physician. everyone should read this book. it’s a quick read.

[00:13:55] It’s not difficult. And his premise in being mortal, [00:14:00] he, is out of Boston and I’ve actually met him briefly before I had a podcast. I’ve heard him speak a couple of times. His premise of being mortal is that physicians in the U S are trained to save lives. So they fail every single day because no one’s immortal.

[00:14:16] So they’re failing. And as physicians, they’re trained to give everybody the opportunity to. Take this test, have this procedure, do this surgery, instead of being trained to say, what do you want your life to look like? Now that we’re at this point and you are very sick. What does joy mean to you?

[00:14:36] Do you want to be able to watch the Red Sox games and have ice cream? Do you want to be able to go for a walk on the ocean? What is the most important thing? And it’s just flipping the script on. Understanding what a physician is there for, and it is so powerful to read. I’d highly recommend it. So he’s my next dream guest.

[00:14:57] He and Becca levy. 

[00:14:58] Rob: That sounds fascinating. [00:15:00] I very interested. And as a Yankees fan, I’m going to let that red Sox comment. 

[00:15:03] Cathleen: Oh, wait a minute. You’re a Yankees fan. You’re a Baltimore. 

[00:15:06] Hey, I lived in New York long before this. And it’s true. You’ve lived everywhere.

[00:15:10] Brittany: Okay. You’re off topic with the baseball comment, Rob. So you started the podcast. How has this helped you continue your mission and spread your word? more extensively? 

[00:15:20] Cathleen: It’s really interesting because. Riverwoods is a retirement community, nonprofit retirement community, three locations in New Hampshire.

[00:15:30] And this is really a passion project of mine to educate people about the opportunities that are present in aging. So the subtitle is let’s get smarter about growing older we’re all growing older. Let’s embrace. And let’s figure out what we need to know along the way along the journey. My podcast is sponsored by Riverwoods.

[00:15:53] I work for Riverwoods, but the goal of the podcast is to elevate the consciousness, to raise [00:16:00] awareness, among people across the country. So it’s really cool to, as a nonprofit, I can work in this field. Anticipating that people who are thinking about Riverwoods will find the podcast will find that it’s appealing to them because it’s smart because it’s interesting.

[00:16:17] because it provides them good information. So we feel that this is elevating our brains. To be considered a thought leader. And. I don’t know if anyone else in our industry that’s doing something like this. So the goal of this is to establish us as a thought leader, beyond the borders of New Hampshire.

[00:16:38] I love that. What are the things that you’ve learned along the way and podcasting that you would give advice to someone that wants to start a podcast? 

[00:16:46] Cathleen: Oh my God, this is another, how much time do we have first find a Kaylee Brooks, Kaylee, works with me at Riverwoods and.

[00:16:55] Before what I came up with this concept, I am not technically savvy. [00:17:00] And Kaylee said to me, I was not president of the AAV club in high school, and I don’t want to be president of the club now, despite that she is really helped me, on the technical aspect of this. and I think one thing. I would say to somebody who’s podcasting is know what your gifts are and what your non gifts are.

[00:17:20] So I have a lot of non gifts in the technical arena and you can’t do this alone. This requires a huge amount of help. my colleague Adele Gabrielson is really contributed a lot to this podcast on how to shape it. what it should look like. She helps with, contact with finding the editor that we use and organizing the website and the show notes.

[00:17:45] and we have an intern who helps out, I think it’s just take a deep breath. It’s a lot of work it’s more worth than you realize. I’m sure you guys know that. and understand why you’re doing it so that you’re clear on is this worth [00:18:00] the time that you’re spending, it’s gotta be worth it to you. 

[00:18:03] Brittany: Yeah, I absolutely agree with that.

[00:18:04] And before we let you go, we’re not letting you leave without telling us what the secret. 

[00:18:08] Okay. Okay. this has been so much fun. So the secret to a long, happy and healthy life is good relationships period. So this study started 83 years ago with a group of hard men. And then they also paired with a group of, inner city, Boston men that did not have the opportunity to go to college, followed it for 83 years, looked at their marital status health.

[00:18:32] Financial status. Children’s spiritual practice, fitness, nutrition, and success. And what they concluded is it’s good relationships, which thank God for me, doesn’t mean you need to be married because I’m not, but it does mean you need a network of some close relationships and some peripheral relationships.

[00:18:53] The name of the dry cleaner, or saying load with the, Amazon delivery guy. those kinds of [00:19:00] connections keep us healthier longer, 

[00:19:02] actually really loved that. Cause I didn’t think I was a social creature until 2020 hint and I was like, I need people. So I love that. I love that. Thank you so much, Cathleen, for joining us today.

[00:19:12] If people want to check out the podcast, where’s the best place for them to listen they can listen to anywhere. They listen to podcasts, apple, iTunes, Spotify. I also have a website www.seniorityauthority.org. There you can look at past episodes organized by topic, and you can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.

[00:19:33] Perfect. I love it. thanks for tuning in, please listen, like, and follow the podcast and we’ll see you guys next week. 

[00:00:00] Rob: Last week. I was sick with a head cold for the first time in what felt like forever. It sucked. I felt like garbage. My voice was super scratchy and it meant we couldn’t record any podcasts that week. It’s going to happen to everybody. At some point, you’re going to feel like garbage, whether it’s a head cold or any cold or whatever, you’re going to get knocked down and not be able to get behind a microphone.

[00:00:23] So we thought we would take some time to give some tips on what you can do while you are either. Down on the couch or cuddled up in bed with your laptop to get ahead on your podcast without actually having to record. So the first tip that I would throw out there is social media prepping. It is one thing that is easy to fall behind on because it takes a lot of time to create social posts for any number of platforms that you might be on.

[00:00:51] It takes time to create your visuals. It takes time to create the actual texts. It takes time to set up any web pages that you might be [00:01:00] associating to. It. It takes time to create sound bites and audiograms. Any of that stuff that you have for your prerecorded episodes that are going to be coming out in the next few weeks.

[00:01:08] It’s a great time to work on those.

[00:01:11] Brittany: Yeah, I agree with that. And I think one of the other things is I am not a huge fan of writing. That’s not really my thing. You’re the English major. You have written books, you’re very accomplished person writing for me. Super difficult. Yes. I’m always behind on my writing blogs. We have to create content, right?

[00:01:30] So I think getting caught up on blogs is a great way to lay in bed, be sick, but also be productive. And don’t just write one blog, write two, maybe three, knock those out. Because I think that those can be one of the things getting off your plate when you do feel better and you can record and you can do other things.

[00:01:46] Blog writing super easy to do when you’re laying in bed, even, maybe have TV on the background. I’ve been guilty of that. 

[00:01:51] Rob: Oh yeah. Same. I absolutely guilty of that. Or having the iPad in front of me and been working. Yeah. Yep. Ditto. All right. Another tip. Look for [00:02:00] your guests.

[00:02:00] Obviously we’re going to give PodOps a little shout out here. You have your phone next to you. You’re in bed. It’s a swipe away. You don’t even have to use your voice. It’s a great opportunity to be scrolling through profiles, looking for potential guests who could be on your show, sending out messages and trying to schedule those in a week or two when you’re going to feel better.

[00:02:20] So it is a great way to plan out the next few weeks. And when you are back on your feet, you can jump right back into your interviews and that content creation. 

[00:02:29] Brittany: Yes. And it never hurts to get ahead on anything. So I will say I love to lay in bed even when I’m just going to bed at night, relaxing.

[00:02:36] I like to do a little swiping in our app, get us some guests on our show. So I’m definitely, even if you’re not sick, it’s a good little fun thing to do before bed or right. When you wake up just saying, we all like to get on our phones. Don’t deny it. We all do it. 

[00:02:48] Rob: We do. And you should talk to us in the app because we definitely are in the app and we do reach out to people.

[00:02:52] So come be our guest. 

[00:02:54] Brittany: Yeah. Come on. let’s talk about your podcast and what value you have found in it. So there’s another plug come [00:03:00] be a guest through our app. I think the other thing that you can do is editing. Editing is so time-consuming that when you’re laying in bed, you can definitely do editing on your laptop and you

[00:03:10] get a lot done and you have to pay attention and things like that, but I do think not having to talk or anything, it’s a great activity for that. Cause you can just sit and focus. Might even been take your mind off of being sick because you have to be in the zone when you edit.

[00:03:22] Rob: Agreed. I’m fortunate. I don’t have to do any of the editing cause you do all of that. I’m very excited about that. It’s a lot of work. but yes, I agree. if you can lay up in bed with your laptop and knock that out, I know how many hours it takes you. it’s a great use of your time. And also, I think you and I are probably, we sound like hypocrites when I say this.

[00:03:41] Cause we’re both stubborn A type personalities. I know that when I first get sick, I’m the type that I deny. It’ll be like, I am not sick. It’s just my allergies acting up. I’ll deny it until the point of I’m too sick to move. I’m happy to hold up in the house and be in my little bubble, but I’m like, I’m not sick.

[00:03:56] I’m fine, I’m still on my and treadmill. I’m good. Once it’s time [00:04:00] to throw in the towel. It is okay to actually give yourself a day or two and actually rest and recuperate. don’t be too hard on yourself. If you do need to take some time, it is okay. Give yourself a little bit of a break.

[00:04:11] don’t take the Rob and Brittany approach and beat yourself up all the time.

[00:04:14] Brittany: I, 100% agree with that and I will say. I got super, super sick after new year’s this year. I don’t know if you remember this Rob, but I was like, I’m going to do all this stuff. And you’re like, dude, if you need to take the day, just do that because you sound terrible and I’m just like, I’m fine. I was not fine.

[00:04:31] I really did have to take a few days because it was literally One of those sicknesses where you’re so sleepy, you just randomly fall asleep and you’re in and out of stuff. So it was definitely good for me to take a few days and I was better for it. And I think I was more productive coming back to work.

[00:04:46] So anyways, I was definitely grateful, not only that have a good business partner that says, look, you need to take the time. It’s fine. We’ll figure it out. And we always do. So I appreciate that about you Rob. 

[00:04:56] Rob: Same. I do think it’s funny that we both do the same thing where we feel [00:05:00] like garbage and we’re like, I’m going to double up my workload.

[00:05:02] I’m fine. I’ll power through. I’m going to get 10 times as much work done and bust through this, and then we’re literally dying inside. But yeah, sometimes I wonder why our brains work the way they do. We need a psychiatrist to come on and analyze us just for fun. That would be an interesting episode.

[00:05:17] Brittany: Yes, it would. Cause we’re both a little sadistic when it comes to work. I think. 

[00:05:21] Rob: Absolutely calling all psychiatrists. If you’re listening where we’re looking for a guest who would like to analyze two A-type stubborn personalities. 

[00:05:28] Brittany: Yes. And why this actually works as a business partnership, because I would never think that two A-type personalities would be able to jive the way that we do, but we do pretty well.

[00:05:36] Rob: Yeah. Why haven’t we killed each other? That’s the weird part. It is odd that we get along so well also I know we’re going off on a tangent because this was not the topic but. We’re very good at decision-making it’s more do we want him to do a, B let’s do A. Okay. done we’re good.

[00:05:48] Next decision made. 

[00:05:49] Brittany: Yep. We’re very decisive when it comes to things. So that has also really helped us. But, I also think the distance helps. I’m just going to say that I think you appreciate the fact that when it’s really cold, where you are, you can come to [00:06:00] where I live and it’s always wonderful and beautiful.

[00:06:02] So 

[00:06:02] Rob: that is very true. Having lived in Puerto Rico for a few years, I definitely miss constant sunshine. So being in Baltimore, where there is true winter, the mid Atlantic has miserable cold winters. I much prefer a winter in Georgia to a winter and Maryland. 

[00:06:17] Brittany: Absolutely. and I’ve gotten to the point where I’m like, so intolerant it’s 70 degrees with a slight breeze and I’m like, oh my gosh, where were all of my coats?

[00:06:24] Rob: See, that’s why you get sick. And that’s why you then have to take these tips into account because it dropped below 70 and you get a cold. 

[00:06:31] Brittany: Exactly. I think we should wrap it here unless you have anything else to add. 

[00:06:34] Rob: If you can avoid getting sick, that’s your best bet, but if not, we gave you those tips, run with them.

[00:06:39] Brittany: I like it. Thanks so much for tuning in. Please listen, like and follow the podcast and we’ll see you guys next week.

[00:00:00] Rob: Today. We are talking data and yes, we are focused on podcasts, but we’re going to back it up and we’re going to start with your website. As per usual, we would recommend that you have a website for your podcasts because you need a place to house it. You need a place to promote it.

[00:00:16] And with your website, you need something to track it. So Google analytics is generally the go-to product because it is free. And most of us have been using what is called universal analytics or GA three for a very long time. And you may or may not be aware that July, 2023, that version of the product is being sunset.

[00:00:36] Meaning you have to move to GA for whether you like it or not. We’re bringing this up because it actually serves you. If you’re using Google analytics today, the universal analytics version of the product to migrate immediately. So the reason for that is GA 4 your data will not cross over with you. There is currently no feature to import your historical data.[00:01:00] 

[00:01:00] So you want to set up that new property in Google analytics, which can run parallel to your current universal analytics property to begin tracking in that new GA 4 property. So this way, if you start today, you’ll have a year or more data in the new property. Yes, you will have to move between the two to do full historical trends.

[00:01:20] But at least you’ll have something. If you wait until the sunset date what’s going to happen is your current property. Universal analytics is just going to stop collecting data. And you’re going to be forced to set up a new property, which is GA4. And if you wait, then you’re going to have a gap in your data.

[00:01:37] So depending on what you’re doing with your reporting, which may be trying to get sponsors, you may be trying to show your web tracks. downloads, ect. There are lots you can do with Google analytics. There are goal settings. You can show downloads impressions. A lot of that’s really valuable when you’re trying to market yourself to advertisers.

[00:01:53] You don’t want to have a gap in that information. So we’re raising that red flag. You want to take a look at this [00:02:00] today. We do have a blog on our website that walks you through some of the step-by-steps. We also link out to a couple of other really helpful articles that give you visuals and can show you how to completely set it up.

[00:02:12] And if you’re lost, you can always reach out and we are happy to help you. 

[00:02:15] Brittany: Okay. I do have one question on this. So say I start doing this today and it starts collecting data. Does that also help me in rankings or is that not a thing? So one of our competitors waited until 20, 23 to do it. We do it now.

[00:02:31] Are we going to outrank them? 

[00:02:32] Rob: So we’re talking in search engine ranking.

[00:02:34] Brittany: Yes. 

[00:02:35] Rob: So not necessarily, your search engine optimization is really a whole nother game. So that’s the effort you’re putting into your actual website. So let’s pick on WordPress. That’s an easy one. with WordPress, you have whatever your plugin is, say, Yoast or AI SEO, and you’re going to plug in your keywords and your metadata.

[00:02:54] What you should be doing is you might have a plugin called Site Key, which is provided by [00:03:00] Google, plugged into your WordPress site, and it’s going to connect your analytics to your site. And then you can connect that to a tool called search console, which is another Google thing. And you can actually use that to measure the traffic.

[00:03:13] You can see what people are searching, and you can use that to continuously improve your keywords and your terms. And evolve it and, always improve your content. So you can use the data in Google analytics to improve what’s within your website. So it won’t inherently improve your rankings. But if you put in the effort, you can improve your rankings.

[00:03:34] Brittany: Okay. I just wanted to clarify. ‘ because I think sometimes we get really confused on all of these things that you have to do with the website. So we love data. And one of the things that we have noticed being in the podcasting space, which has been super interesting is the lack of it. You can get a lot of basic information, but if you’re looking to dive into anything, it makes it really hard because it’s a very locked down type of. Vertical and people are not willing [00:04:00] to share any of their data to help anyone else out, but it also hurts, a lot of indie podcasters, but if you have a podcast with, say iHeart, it benefits you to not share the data.

[00:04:09] So it’s a weird vertical that we’re in because the podcasting space has always been super, fluid. It’s really been owned by the podcaster. And now we have these big corporations getting involved, which now you’re seeing the problem with that. 

[00:04:22] Rob: And it is really interesting to your point.

[00:04:24] we have, been delving more so into to the data and what’s available out there. pop-ups has really led us down that path because one of the things we’re trying to do for the hosts that are on our platform is we want to pull in metrics for you that make your profile more attractive to potential guests.

[00:04:42] Rob: And as we’re connecting and talking to. Some of the industry, biggest people that are out there who say they have the data. What we’re learning is they don’t really have the data. They have relationships to connect to the iHeart’s or the Buzzsprouts of the world. And they actually [00:05:00] have to go get permission to share the data.

[00:05:02] But what’s even more interesting is that we’re finding out that a lot of it’s not digitized, like you’d expect. So you would think this can come over in an API that it can be plugged in a really nice way. That’s not true. A lot of it’s being processed in Excel spreadsheets, which to me makes me very skeptical because I can put anything I want in an Excel spreadsheet and send it to you and tell you this podcast got a million downloads.

[00:05:25] I now have no way to verify it. So I’m skeptical of some of the data coming out of the big hosting services when they are coming in these. Non digital formats that honestly can easily be manipulated. Yeah, 

[00:05:40] Brittany: I agree with that. And I think the other thing that I think is interesting is on our last podcast, we actually talked about the conference and just how a lot of the answers that people gave were super vague.

[00:05:51] And it just makes you question okay, what do their numbers actually look like? With a network. We also talked to someone else that they had started a network and [00:06:00] they actually pull all of their shows numbers in order to give data. The data is easily manipulated at this point, which is interesting to look at.

[00:06:08] And it does help when you know, numbers are pulled together for sponsorships and things like that. But I do think it makes it really hard to understand how you scale, what that looks like. What are advertisers looking for, especially when you’re misconstruing the data and pulling multiple things in at once.

[00:06:22] Rob: I agree. And I actually think, I’m thinking of who you’re referencing and I won’t say their name because, of course we don’t want to be sued. we like to play nice. I’m thinking back to a presentation they did, and this was more of a private presentation. It wasn’t at the conference and this is how we realized they were manipulating their data because they actually shared.

[00:06:39] Some of their podcasts have as little as 300 downloads and then some of the biggest half a million, but they are touting that they have on average 14 million downloads a month. So we realized they’re just pooling all of their podcasts together, which is really just the classic digital marketing trick.

[00:06:56] if you’ve seen any companies, spreadsheet on what [00:07:00] their social media stats are. That’s exactly what they do when they’re like we’re getting 3000% conversion on our Facebook ads is because they are taking all of their ads. They’re combining the metrics together to get the really good, sexy number, because nobody wants to show that, oh, the ad, they all only got three clicks on them, or they only got 20 views because when you actually break it down and look at the individual numbers in general, it’s not that impressive.

[00:07:25] Brittany: Yeah, it does make it interesting. And I think the other thing that has also been interesting is that a lot of the tracking that they do within the podcast space is actually self opted in. So you actually have to opt into one of these companies and have a little piece of code put on the front of your RSS feed and have them linked in order for them to track a lot of things and also for you to get some rankings.

[00:07:46] So I think that’s also interesting. learned that. a thing and that if shows are not opting in, they’re not really being tracked. So therefore, even if they were the number one show, you really wouldn’t know what their numbers look like or anything because you have to opt into that.

[00:07:59] [00:08:00] So I think that’s an interesting thing in the podcasting space that I wouldn’t have thought about, but because. We see this in a lot of areas of podcasting. There isn’t a lot of streamlined anything. It’s like the wild west out here, which is fun to be in this environment, but also very frustrating because it’s like, how have we not solved this problem yet?

[00:08:17] This should be easy.

[00:08:18] it is interesting. And I will say that with some of the things they’re doing, and I’m just thinking about you talking about having to put a piece of code on there. I think of our own clients. And the reason a lot of our clients come to us is they’re not technical people. That’s not what they do. They run businesses and they don’t want to deal with tech stuff.

[00:08:37] Rob: So they hand it off to us because we are tech nerds. We are podcast people. This is our bread and butter. It’s what we live and breathe. If we ask them to put a piece of code on anything, they would look at us like a deer in the headlights. So it also makes me wonder. For other podcasters out there who, they podcasts cause they love podcasting if they even want it to opt into some of this tracking, but then it [00:09:00] came to, I have to opt in, but I also have to go at a piece of code to either my website or into my hosting service, if that’s where they just give up, because they’re like, I don’t know what to do.

[00:09:08] This is too difficult. So maybe it’s even just creating that roadblock that makes it too hard.

[00:09:14] Brittany: It’s not even that you have to get the code added. You also have to follow up with your hosting service and have them connect the piece on the backend. So you have to do two parts. You have to do it with the tracking service and then also. You’re podcasting host service. And if you have to do the research on your own, it’s a little tedious and you’re like, forget it.

[00:09:33] I don’t need it. It’s not that big of a deal, especially depending on what you’re using your podcast for, because I do think that there are different strategies behind podcasting, especially for business owners and things like that. Salespeople. So I don’t know, it’s one of those interesting things that I think could be solved, but I think that also people are not.

[00:09:48] Collaborating enough. And when companies get really good at what they’re doing Libsyn or Spotify or someone is coming in and purchasing those companies and really taking them off the market, making it really hard [00:10:00] to collaborate. And so think that’s part of the thing, which that’s what we all hope for, That our whatever product we create, it’s good enough that someone wants to take it and really put it in their environment. And. Enhance what they’re doing. So I understand what Spotify is doing, but at the same time, it does make it really frustrating for indie podcasters, which is really what podcasting started as was really grassroots.

[00:10:21] And now we’re seeing it flourish and it’s growing really fast right now, but it makes it difficult for the people that are doing Indy podcasting to really level up because some of those tools are really being taken away.

[00:10:34] The environment isn’t really collaborating together to solve problems, which it’s just a really interesting space right now.

[00:10:40] Rob: And I think, especially with, so our own hosting service that we use for our two podcasts. It has some basic data, we can see the number of streams and we can tell, what countries it’s coming from and what player. But that’s about it. So it doesn’t really tell us much about our audience.

[00:10:57] and I think anybody listening, one thing you know about Brittany and [00:11:00] I is if it doesn’t work or the tool isn’t there, then we’re just going to solve the problem ourselves. That’s why we invented pot ups. And I won’t let the cat out of the bag, but that’s where we’re headed in the data is a problem.

[00:11:14] That’s our next big project. We are, we’re working on a solution for that. So that’s our kind of our false surprise that’s coming,

[00:11:20] Brittany: which is always fun and exciting. We are always working on something and the podcast space has really allowed us to be very creative. I think that there are some other things coming up for us that we’re going to be really excited to talk about where obviously not there yet. Rob, thanks for giving a teaser in there.

[00:11:34] But I think overall yes, data needs to be enhanced in the podcasting space and we need to be able to dive in to see what people are doing. What’s working, what’s not working because I think ultimately when we’re able to analyze this stuff, we’ll be able to help people grow their shows, figure out what they need to do with their audience to really make it engaging.

[00:11:51] Anything left to add on the data aspect of podcasting. 

[00:11:53] Rob: I think we’ve beaten the data to death. I think we are good. 

[00:11:56] Brittany: Perfect. that’s it for this episode. Thanks for tuning in. [00:12:00] Please listen, like, and follow the podcast and we’ll see you guys next week.

[00:00:00] Brittany: Today, we are going to be talking about podcast movement. It was our first conference we’ve ever been to. We were very excited and we flew all the way to LA from the east coast. And. there was a lot of things that we learned and also a lot of things that we were surprised about. Rob, do you want to kick us off with your thoughts on going to podcast movement and no, it can’t be about Paris Hilton 

[00:00:22] Rob: okay. That’s fair. was going to say, the jet lag is real. so I think the one thing I would probably change is. You and I are both over schedulers in the sense that we like to pack as much as possible into our schedules, which you know, that is the entrepreneur way. And the conference started on a Wednesday.

[00:00:40] So we flew in on Wednesday and that three hour time difference, I was coming from Pittsburgh. We met up in Atlanta and then rolling right into the conference. I was dead by the end of that first day. So exhausted, in retrospect should have flown in on Tuesday, gotten a full night’s sleep in a little more prepared for the, [00:01:00] networking events that were scheduled for that first evening.

[00:01:02] Since those are really, I think the most important piece of the conference. I mean,the sessions are great. I think we heard a lot of interesting things. I think there were a lot of sessions that validated some of the things we’re doing. Even if you don’t always learn something, it is nice to get that affirmation that, oh, okay, great.

[00:01:20] We’re doing that. We’re doing that. So we’re on the right track. but yeah, I think my first thing would be adjusting the schedule and then yeah, it was cool to see Paris Hilton. she was, a mega pop star during our. Younger days coming up. 

[00:01:32] Brittany: Yeah. I had no idea. She was a DJ that was news to me.

[00:01:35] Rob: For me, one of the takeaways, I wish that they would have maybe, cause we did go to the Paris Hilton event. It was cool, but it was really hard to network in that environment because it was so loud and people really did stay with who they came with.

[00:01:47] I think we met a gal at dinner. that we ended up, jiving with and were able to talk to her about podcasting and she was newer into podcasting. So that I think was really fun to almost mentor her while we were there. And like we taught her how to use like some of the Instagram functionality and [00:02:00] different things that would help her with promoting her podcast and moving her podcast forward, which was cool.

[00:02:05] Rob: I really liked that.. 

[00:02:06] Yeah. And actually, it’s a small world. Her podcast actually really jives well with another one of our clients. So we were able to actually make a connection for her, to have a guest interview. So it was like taking pot live literally where the live edition. 

[00:02:19] Brittany: Oh, that’s what our event is going to be called actually is PodOps Live so there you go.

[00:02:24] Rob: I like it. I’ve already nailed the name down. We’re very good at.

[00:02:26] Brittany: Yeah, yeah.. 

[00:02:27] Rob: do agree with you. I think,one thing that was really different about this conference from other conferences I’ve been at is it did seem that a lot of the attendees either they knew each other prior to getting there, or they really stuck with the people they came with.

[00:02:41] A lot of people were there for work. So they stuck with their work people. he did make it a little difficult to break into some of those circles to, to try and network with people. So it is intimidating. it’s gives you that, it’s like you’re in high school again where it’s you’re the lone person trying to find a table to sit out for lunch and it’s very [00:03:00] uncomfortable.

[00:03:00] I don’t personally love that feeling. So I think other conferences I’ve been to. You actually had, I think a lot more people like ourselves where they were individuals, they weren’t connected to anybody necessarily. And it was much easier to casually walk up to somebody or strike up a conversation, in a very natural way.

[00:03:18] Brittany: Yeah. And I think that also speaks to how new that the podcasting space still is because there are a lot of people that know each other. people that are in this space have been in it for a while. And now that it’s growing, I think you’re going to see more people come into it like us.

[00:03:33] But I do think that it’s very cliquey, the experience that we had and they do all know each other in some way, and they’ve worked on projects together and, there are people that have been in the space and that are doing similar things and that’s who people are naturally drawn to.

[00:03:48] Anyways. I thought that was just like, an interesting

[00:03:51] observation. And, I also think that the, where they have, this is just like a pet peeve of mine, but where they have the conference just didn’t seem [00:04:00] like the best place to have it because there was not really. A good space to actually network in the hotel lobby. It was an awkward space.

[00:04:07] They didn’t really have a hotel restaurant necessarily. I think they had little cafe, but not what I would consider a good place to have an event like that. 

[00:04:15] Rob: I agree, and I am pretty sure I said this while we were onsite. And it does harken back to my days of planning events for organizations that they had a terrible layout.

[00:04:25] The sponsor because they’re all in one big row and you’re crammed in this space and it was so hard. Actually try to learn about these companies and what they’re offering as you’re really getting shoved around, as people are trying to get in and out of sessions, it was a very small, awkward space.

[00:04:40] to your point, it also, the lobby bar area was constantly crowded. It was a mix of guests, as well as people from the conference. So I’m not sure if you’re a guest or not. Cause not everybody was wearing the lanyards that they gave us for the conference

[00:04:54] I’m not going to just walk up to you in this bar and start talking to you and then have you be like, I’m a hotel guest. You [00:05:00] psychopath leave me alone. 

[00:05:01] Brittany: Yeah, it was an interesting space for sure. And I don’t think that the location of the hotel itself as well, there wasn’t a ton of stuff around it.

[00:05:09] So you had to like venture out to be able to go to dinner or, do other things outside the conference. Which was just, like I said, I don’t think I’ve ever been to a conference that is that unaccessible to other things. 

[00:05:19] I don’t know if this is my favorite thing or least favorite thing in a lot of sessions.

[00:05:23] they would have presenters who did they have very successful podcasts, have really large audiences and people kept asking, what’s your secret? Like, how did you build your audience? What did you do? And it was amazing. Nobody would answer that question. They always found a way around it.

[00:05:39] Rob: It felt very much like we were in like a political debate where they give you 10 answers, but they didn’t actually give you the answer to the question you asked them, which I thought was interesting. Cause it’s like, what are you doing that you don’t want to tell us? are people doing something shady or is it that you won your audience through dumb luck?

[00:05:55] And you don’t want to say that, just throwing that out there, like what’s really going on [00:06:00] behind the scenes. 

[00:06:00] Brittany: Agreed. even the industry professionals that gave, presentations and things, , it was very vague in the way that they explained the way that things operate and might get.

[00:06:09] Maybe you don’t want to give away your secret sauce, but at the same time, you’re speaking at a conference where people have paid a significant amount of money to get better and learn how to grow their shows. And that’s the number one thing in podcasting? How do I grow my audience?

[00:06:21] What do I do? What are the steps I can take? think it’s that cookie cutter answer that everyone gave that really didn’t shed any light. It’s like we are paying for your experience. If I wanted the cookie cutter answer, I would just Google that shit. 

[00:06:33] I agree. There was a lot of keep doing what you’re doing.

[00:06:36] Rob: Keep creating content persevere. It’s yeah, of course. What are you doing that made you successful? That’s why I’m here listening. And I feel like nobody answered that question. So that’s the one area where I do feel like there was a let down because nobody was giving that information away. there were a lot of good little tips and tricks, a lot of awesome products that we got to see and a lot of interesting people, but I do wish some of the presenters had been [00:07:00] more forthcoming with.

[00:07:01] the answers to questions we were asking. 

[00:07:03] Brittany: Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the other things that I thought was interesting is we’re there at a conference and there’s an elephant in the room. I went to the charitable session. That guy was super interesting. I love chartable day. But Spotify just bought them literally five weeks before the conference. So he addressed it, but there was no conversation of what that was going to look like for people using their software to track their podcasts statistics, because they do have really good ones, the thing that Spotify is doing, and I wish that Spotify actually would have been there to speak on it because they’re investing heavily in the podcast space and.

[00:07:40] we did hear from iHeart, which was great, but Spotify really is investing so much in the space that it would have been interesting to hear, what is your guys’ long-term goal here, because you’re buying up all these smaller podcasting companies that have really done a lot of great things for the space.

[00:07:54] Brittany: And what does that going to mean for people that don’t want to be. Only on Spotify. Like they want to own their own [00:08:00] content. And then to be able to have a multiple sources, because we all know that when you silo yourself into one platform, it really can make it. So you feel like you don’t own your own content?

[00:08:10] Rob: Yeah. I think, obviously we’re going to keep our eye on that and stay tuned because we’re very interested in what Spotify is doing. I feel like for the chartable people, they were I’m sure. Informed, Hey, don’t say this do say that. I’m sure there was coaching that went on this is a guess, but I feel like.

[00:08:27] In the very nearish future, that data that people can get at today’s suddenly going to become very locked down or inaccessible to the general public like ourselves, or a much heavier pay-to-play type of model will go into effect. I get it business is business, but Spotify, they make me think of apple.

[00:08:47] Apples is really good at building themselves up, but they don’t really play well with. And Spotify gives me the same impression. yes, they’re successful. They want to be successful. But at the same time, if that means gobbling up everybody else and [00:09:00] making it impossible to, collaborate or have tools that work outside of their product, if you’re using their platform, seems like they might be moving in that direction.

[00:09:08] I could be totally wrong, but guess we’ll have to wait. 

[00:09:11] Brittany: Yeah, I know that they have a big plan, especially around like advertising and such. They bought megaphone and they’ve bought a couple of other companies. They also bought their own, hosting service. They haven’t locked it down yet.

[00:09:21] So we’ll see what happens. But I do think Spotify is an interesting player in the game, especially because when we were at that conference, you could see by a lot of people surveyed that people were not happy with what Spotify is doing. But I think on the flip side of that, it doesn’t open up a lot of opportunity for things like,one of the ones that come to mind is podkite.

[00:09:40] They are really trying to move into that space and takeover kind of that tracking for everyone else. So if Spotify does lock Chartable down, maybe that opens up an opportunity for. Podkite to be the number one source in 15 other platforms. So I don’t know. you can look at it two ways.

[00:09:56] Rob: Yeah, no, that’s a great point. And pod chaser there, another one [00:10:00] out there with data that, we’ve explored them and it’ll be interesting to see how some of these smaller companies rise to the occasion if they do. And, we’ll see what happens. Although I will say, it was interesting.

[00:10:11] One more thing about Spotify is at this conference, they did have their own megaphone lounge, but it was only accessible to their employees. If you remember, it was on the second floor, like often a corner, which it seems like it was like a sponsored area where anybody could go and Nope, they literally had a check-in desk.

[00:10:28] If you are not a Spotify megaphone employee person, you were not welcome there, which was very odd.. 

[00:10:33] I did think that was strange too, but it also speaks to how they are playing in the podcast space, honestly. 

[00:10:39] Yeah. Screw us. 

[00:10:40] Brittany: We’re our own thing. So we’ll see what happens, but they are investing a lot of money, so we could do a whole episode on Spotify because it’s super fascinating what they’re doing.

[00:10:48] Rob: And, was going to say the thing we haven’t touched on is the flip side of this conference for us is we were really introducing our new mobile app to the public. So we went in as a sponsor,we had done bag [00:11:00] inserts in the marketing. So this was really our first foray into that. it was interesting to be on the flip side.

[00:11:04] we’ve attended lots of conferences in our professional careers. For at least for me, I think for you as well, this is the first time being on the sponsor side. So that was neat. also it does give you a new respect for all the timelines and having to hit, mailing dates and the printing dates.

[00:11:19] Brittany: And I’m like, oh my God, I’m so glad we don’t do direct mail. I know it’s still makes money, but what a pain in the butt agreed. But think we’ll see growth in the podcasting space. I don’t think we’re at a place where I felt. that conference necessarily was a game-changer for us.

[00:11:32] I’m hoping it changes, but I don’t think it was a game changer, just based on how the conference operated to. 

[00:11:38] Rob: Yeah. I think it was a good place to dip our toe in the water. and for lack of a better metaphor. And I dunno, I think it’ll be interesting to see. As we attend and speak at upcoming conferences, how different they are or how different the audience is.

[00:11:53] So know you’re going to a conference in the next couple of weeks that I won’t be able to attend, I think you said it’s more indie type [00:12:00] of podcast professionals. So I think it’ll be an interesting shift of what’s your experience at that conference. The one, we were just at feels very corporate focused and for us, we are still a small business.

[00:12:12] It is interesting to be in the same room with these companies that are Spotify size and pretending we’re all on the same level playing field. Cause we’re really not they have resources. We do not have today, but we’re all, pretending we’re playing on the same side. 

[00:12:25] Brittany: Yeah. I a hundred percent agree with that and they do think that we will see.

[00:12:28] Kind of what that looks like, but I don’t feel super corporate either I’m not super relatable to corporate people. that’s just not who I am as a person. So I think that, maybe the indie space spaces better for us and those podcasters their grassroots, which I mean, hate to break it to you.

[00:12:42] We are grassroots people. We’re doing stuff on our own. We’ve built our own shit. And it’s a lot harder to do the grassroots stuff, but I think in a grassroots space, I think we’ll see additional support that we might not see in a corporate environment. 

[00:12:54] Rob: Yeah. I think that’s a good point. It’s it is a lot harder to do at the grassroots way, but it’s also.

[00:12:59] [00:13:00] More fulfilling. That sounds like total crap, but I really mean it like, 

[00:13:04] Brittany: I think because we get to do it on our terms. And I think that’s the big thing. we don’t have to answer to anyone, but each other, which sometimes is stressful, but yeah. Yeah, it’s just us 

[00:13:13] Rob: true plus we’re probably way harder on ourselves than anybody else could be.

[00:13:16] So 

[00:13:16] very true. So all in all I’m glad we went. I think the comparison will be interesting and also, there’s a lot of podcasting conferences sprouting up everywhere. So it’ll be interesting to see what this circuit turns into in the next. 

[00:13:29] Rob: Yeah, I agree. I think for us, the focus on the upcoming conferences is more speaking engagements and, providing actual information.

[00:13:37] I think one thing, we were sharing that we weren’t totally happy with some of the presenters, so practice what we preach. We can, secure speaking spots and actually share information on how to move that needle and what we did. 

[00:13:50] Brittany: Absolutely. Absolutely. We don’t have secrets. 

[00:13:53] Rob: Yeah, we tell you guys all our dirt right 

[00:13:54] here.

[00:13:54] Exactly. Do you have any final thoughts on this? Rob 

[00:13:57] final thought would be, if you’re [00:14:00] in the podcasting space and you’re thinking of going to a conference. Do your research on the conference and who’s attending if possible. one thing that I think did come out of the COVID era is the websites related to conferences have really changed and evolved.

[00:14:14] the conference we just attended, made it possible to do networking through their website in advance. we’ve taken full advantage of that. A couple of years ago, that really wasn’t a thing. You didn’t have any ability to do anything until you were feet on the ground at the conference.

[00:14:28] Rob: So utilize all the resources that they give you before getting there. if you can set up meetings in advance, you’ll make your life that much easier once you actually are at the conference, to maximize your time and your investment because conferences do cost a lot of money.

[00:14:41] Brittany: Yes, absolutely. I think going with a plan is. Important. And I would say consider the time difference three hours is a lot, it’s a huge time difference, especially when I’m going to say this. And everyone’s going to know now that I’m 92 at my core. So I go to bed at eight 30 every night. That’s five 30 on [00:15:00] the,Pacific standard time..

[00:15:01] It was rough to say the least. So I think just taking that into account and the fact that like the jet lag and all of that, it was a little rougher than I had anticipated. I’m like, oh, I can do this. But then I remembered I’m not 20 anymore. So 

[00:15:11] Rob: yeah. I agree. We’re both early bedtime people, but we’re also up at the crack of Dawn.

[00:15:15] Brittany: Yeah. I’m like, 

[00:15:16] can anyone network at five 30? Let’s like, go to coffee, let’s go to the gym together. Let’s do this. 

[00:15:20] Rob: Oh my God. This, yeah. We didn’t even touch on that. That was a nightmare. 

[00:15:23] Yes. It totally was. Here’s the other thing, there was another big conference there and they were a different type of people.

[00:15:29] I don’t think there was a ton of podcasters at the gym. If I’m being real honest with you. I think it was a lot of people. I believe it was a real estate conference, so there’s a lot of people in there. Those people like to be pretty. So they like to work out, but it was very busy and very uncomfortable.

[00:15:42] Very uncomfortable. Yes, it was. 

[00:15:44] Brittany: So anyways, We’re going to wrap here, but thank you so much for tuning in. Please listen, likeand subscribe, and we’ll see you guys next time.

[00:00:00] Brittany: today, we are going to be talking about podcast movement. It was our first conference we’ve ever been to. We were very excited and we flew all the way to LA from the east coast. And. there was a lot of things that we learned and also a lot of things that we were surprised about. Rob, do you want to kick us off with your thoughts on going to podcast movement and no, it can’t be about Paris Hilton 

[00:00:22] Rob: okay. That’s fair. was going to say, the jet lag is real. so I think the one thing I would probably change is. You and I are both over schedulers in the sense that we like to pack as much as possible into our schedules, which you know, that is the entrepreneur way. And the conference started on a Wednesday.

[00:00:40] So we flew in on Wednesday and that three-hour time difference, I was coming from Pittsburgh. We met up in Atlanta and then rolling right into the conference. I was dead by the end of that first day. So exhausted, in retrospect should have flown in on Tuesday, gotten a full night’s sleep in a little more prepared for the, [00:01:00] networking events that were scheduled for that first evening.

[00:01:02] Since those are really, I think the most important piece of the conference. I mean,the sessions are great. I think we heard a lot of interesting things. I think there were a lot of sessions that validated some of the things we’re doing. Even if you don’t always learn something, it is nice to get that affirmation that, oh, okay, great.

[00:01:20] We’re doing that. We’re doing that. So we’re on the right track. but yeah, I think my first thing would be adjusting the schedule and then yeah, it was cool to see Paris Hilton. she was, a mega pop star during our. Younger days coming up. 

[00:01:32] Brittany: Yeah. I had no idea. She was a DJ that was news to me.

[00:01:35] Rob: For me, one of the takeaways, I wish that they would have maybe, cause we did go to the Paris Hilton event. It was cool, but it was really hard to network in that environment because it was so loud and people really did stay with who they came with.

[00:01:47] I think we met a gal at dinner. that we ended up, jiving with and were able to talk to her about podcasting and she was newer into podcasting. So that I think was really fun to almost mentor her while we were there. And like we taught her how to use like some of the Instagram functionality and [00:02:00] different things that would help her with promoting her podcast and moving her podcast forward, which was cool.

[00:02:05] Rob: I really liked that.. 

[00:02:06] Yeah. And actually, it’s a small world. Her podcast actually really jives well with another one of our clients. So we were able to actually make a connection for her, to have a guest interview. So it was like taking pot live literally where the live edition. 

[00:02:19] Brittany: Oh, that’s what our event is going to be called actually is PodOps Live so there you go.

[00:02:24] Rob: I like it. I’ve already nailed the name down. We’re very good at.

[00:02:26] Brittany: Yeah, yeah.

[00:02:27] Rob: do agree with you. I think, one thing that was really different about this conference from other conferences I’ve been at is it did seem that a lot of the attendees either they knew each other prior to getting there, or they really stuck with the people they came with.

[00:02:41] A lot of people were there for work. So they stuck with their work people. he did make it a little difficult to break into some of those circles to, to try and network with people. So it is intimidating. It gives you that, it’s like you’re in high school again where it’s you’re the lone person trying to find a table to sit out for lunch and it’s very [00:03:00] uncomfortable.

[00:03:00] I don’t personally love that feeling. So I think other conferences I’ve been to. You actually had, I think a lot more people like ourselves where they were individuals, they weren’t connected to anybody necessarily. And it was much easier to casually walk up to somebody or strike up a conversation, in a very natural way.

[00:03:18] Brittany: Yeah. And I think that also speaks to how new that the podcasting space still is because there are a lot of people that know each other. people that are in this space have been in it for a while. And now that it’s growing, I think you’re going to see more people come into it like us.

[00:03:33] But I do think that it’s very cliquey, the experience that we had and they do all know each other in some way, and they’ve worked on projects together and, there are people that have been in the space and that are doing similar things and that’s who people are naturally drawn to.

[00:03:48] Anyways. I thought that was just like, an interesting

[00:03:51] observation. And, I also think that the, where they have, this is just like a pet peeve of mine, but where they have the conference just didn’t seem [00:04:00] like the best place to have it because there was not really. A good space to actually network in the hotel lobby. It was an awkward space.

[00:04:07] They didn’t really have a hotel restaurant necessarily. I think they had little cafe, but not what I would consider a good place to have an event like that. 

[00:04:15] Rob: I agree, and I am pretty sure I said this while we were on site. And it does harken back to my days of planning events for organizations that they had a terrible layout.

[00:04:25] The sponsor because they’re all in one big row and you’re crammed in this space and it was so hard. Actually try to learn about these companies and what they’re offering as you’re really getting shoved around, as people are trying to get in and out of sessions, it was a very small, awkward space.

[00:04:40] to your point, it also, the lobby bar area was constantly crowded. It was a mix of guests, as well as people from the conference. So I’m not sure if you’re a guest or not. Cause not everybody was wearing the lanyards that they gave us for the conference

[00:04:54] I’m not going to just walk up to you in this bar and start talking to you and then have you be like, I’m a hotel guest. You [00:05:00] psychopath leave me alone. 

[00:05:01] Brittany: Yeah, it was an interesting space for sure. And I don’t think that the location of the hotel itself as well, there wasn’t a ton of stuff around it.

[00:05:09] So you had to like venture out to be able to go to dinner or, do other things outside the conference. Which was just, like I said, I don’t think I’ve ever been to a conference that is that inaccessible to other things. 

[00:05:19] I don’t know if this is my favorite thing or least favorite thing in a lot of sessions.

[00:05:23] they would have presenters who did they have very successful podcasts, have really large audiences and people kept asking, what’s your secret? Like, how did you build your audience? What did you do? And it was amazing. Nobody would answer that question. They always found a way around it.

[00:05:39] Rob: It felt very much like we were in like a political debate where they give you 10 answers, but they didn’t actually give you the answer to the question you asked them, which I thought was interesting. Cause it’s like, what are you doing that you don’t want to tell us? are people doing something shady, or is it that you won your audience through dumb luck?

[00:05:55] And you don’t want to say that, just throwing that out there, like what’s really going on [00:06:00] behind the scenes. 

[00:06:00] Brittany: Agreed. even the industry professionals that gave, presentations and things, it was very vague in the way that they explained the way that things operate and might get.

[00:06:09] Maybe you don’t want to give away your secret sauce, but at the same time, you’re speaking at a conference where people have paid a significant amount of money to get better and learn how to grow their shows. And that’s the number one thing in podcasting? How do I grow my audience?

[00:06:21] What do I do? What are the steps I can take? think it’s that cookie cutter answer that everyone gave that really didn’t shed any light. It’s like we are paying for your experience. If I wanted the cookie cutter answer, I would just Google that shit. 

[00:06:33] I agree. There was a lot of keep doing what you’re doing.

[00:06:36] Rob: Keep creating content persevere. It’s yeah, of course. What are you doing that made you successful? That’s why I’m here listening. And I feel like nobody answered that question. So that’s the one area where I do feel like there was a let down because nobody was giving that information away. there were a lot of good little tips and tricks, a lot of awesome products that we got to see and a lot of interesting people, but I do wish some of the presenters had been [00:07:00] more forthcoming with.

[00:07:01] the answers to questions we were asking. 

[00:07:03] Brittany: Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the other things that I thought was interesting is we’re there at a conference and there’s an elephant in the room. I went to the charitable session. That guy was super interesting. I love chartable day. But Spotify just bought them literally five weeks before the conference. So he addressed it, but there was no conversation of what that was going to look like for people using their software to track their podcasts statistics, because they do have really good ones, the thing that Spotify is doing, and I wish that Spotify actually would have been there to speak on it because they’re investing heavily in the podcast space and.

[00:07:40] we did hear from iHeart, which was great, but Spotify really is investing so much in the space that it would have been interesting to hear, what is your guys’ long-term goal here, because you’re buying up all these smaller podcasting companies that have really done a lot of great things for the space.

[00:07:54] Brittany: And what does that going to mean for people that don’t want to be. Only on Spotify. Like they want to own their own [00:08:00] content. And then to be able to have a multiple sources, because we all know that when you silo yourself into one platform, it really can make it. So you feel like you don’t own your own content?

[00:08:10] Rob: Yeah. I think, obviously we’re going to keep our eye on that and stay tuned because we’re very interested in what Spotify is doing. I feel like for the chartable people, they were I’m sure. Informed, Hey, don’t say this do say that. I’m sure there was coaching that went on this is a guess, but I feel like.

[00:08:27] In the very nearish future, that data that people can get at today’s suddenly going to become very locked down or inaccessible to the general public like ourselves, or a much heavier pay-to-play type of model will go into effect. I get it business is business, but Spotify, they make me think of apple.

[00:08:47] Apples is really good at building themselves up, but they don’t really play well with. And Spotify gives me the same impression. yes, they’re successful. They want to be successful. But at the same time, if that means gobbling up everybody else and [00:09:00] making it impossible to, collaborate or have tools that work outside of their product, if you’re using their platform, seems like they might be moving in that direction.

[00:09:08] I could be totally wrong, but guess we’ll have to wait. 

[00:09:11] Brittany: Yeah, I know that they have a big plan, especially around like advertising and such. They bought megaphone and they’ve bought a couple of other companies. They also bought their own, hosting service. They haven’t locked it down yet.

[00:09:21] So we’ll see what happens. But I do think Spotify is an interesting player in the game, especially because when we were at that conference, you could see by a lot of people surveyed that people were not happy with what Spotify is doing. But I think on the flip side of that, it doesn’t open up a lot of opportunity for things like,one of the ones that come to mind is podkite.

[00:09:40] They are really trying to move into that space and takeover kind of that tracking for everyone else. So if Spotify does lock Chartable down, maybe that opens up an opportunity for. Podkite to be the number one source in 15 other platforms. So I don’t know. you can look at it two ways.

[00:09:56] Rob: Yeah, no, that’s a great point. And pod chaser there, another one [00:10:00] out there with data that, we’ve explored them and it’ll be interesting to see how some of these smaller companies rise to the occasion if they do. And, we’ll see what happens. Although I will say, it was interesting.

[00:10:11] One more thing about Spotify is at this conference, they did have their own megaphone lounge, but it was only accessible to their employees. If you remember, it was on the second floor, like often a corner, which it seems like it was like a sponsored area where anybody could go and Nope, they literally had a check-in desk.

[00:10:28] If you are not a Spotify megaphone employee person, you were not welcome there, which was very odd.. 

[00:10:33] I did think that was strange too, but it also speaks to how they are playing in the podcast space, honestly. 

[00:10:39] Yeah. Screw us. 

[00:10:40] Brittany: We’re our own thing. So we’ll see what happens, but they are investing a lot of money, so we could do a whole episode on Spotify because it’s super fascinating what they’re doing.

[00:10:48] Rob: And, was going to say the thing we haven’t touched on is the flip side of this conference for us is we were really introducing our new mobile app to the public. So we went in as a sponsor,we had done bag [00:11:00] inserts in the marketing. So this was really our first foray into that. it was interesting to be on the flip side.

[00:11:04] we’ve attended lots of conferences in our professional careers. For at least for me, I think for you as well, this is the first time being on the sponsor side. So that was neat. also it does give you a new respect for all the timelines and having to hit, mailing dates and the printing dates.

[00:11:19] Brittany: And I’m like, oh my God, I’m so glad we don’t do direct mail. I know it’s still makes money, but what a pain in the butt agreed. But think we’ll see growth in the podcasting space. I don’t think we’re at a place where I felt. that conference necessarily was a game-changer for us.

[00:11:32] I’m hoping it changes, but I don’t think it was a game changer, just based on how the conference operated to. 

[00:11:38] Rob: Yeah. I think it was a good place to dip our toe in the water. and for lack of a better metaphor. And I dunno, I think it’ll be interesting to see. As we attend and speak at upcoming conferences, how different they are or how different the audience is.

[00:11:53] So know you’re going to a conference in the next couple of weeks that I won’t be able to attend, I think you said it’s more indie type [00:12:00] of podcast professionals. So I think it’ll be an interesting shift of what’s your experience at that conference. The one, we were just at feels very corporate-focused and for us, we are still a small business.

[00:12:12] It is interesting to be in the same room with these companies that are Spotify size and pretending we’re all on the same level playing field. Cause we’re really not they have resources. We do not have today, but we’re all, pretending we’re playing on the same side. 

[00:12:25] Brittany: Yeah. I a hundred percent agree with that and they do think that we will see.

[00:12:28] Kind of what that looks like, but I don’t feel super corporate either I’m not super relatable to corporate people. that’s just not who I am as a person. So I think that, maybe the indie space spaces better for us and those podcasters their grassroots, which I mean, hate to break it to you.

[00:12:42] We are grassroots people. We’re doing stuff on our own. We’ve built our own shit. And it’s a lot harder to do the grassroots stuff, but I think in a grassroots space, I think we’ll see additional support that we might not see in a corporate environment. 

[00:12:54] Rob: Yeah. I think that’s a good point. It’s it is a lot harder to do at the grassroots way, but it’s also.

[00:12:59] [00:13:00] More fulfilling. That sounds like total crap, but I really mean it like, 

[00:13:04] Brittany: I think because we get to do it on our terms. And I think that’s the big thing. we don’t have to answer to anyone, but each other, which sometimes is stressful, but yeah. Yeah, it’s just us 

[00:13:13] Rob: true plus we’re probably way harder on ourselves than anybody else could be.

[00:13:16] So 

[00:13:16] very true. So all in all I’m glad we went. I think the comparison will be interesting and also, there’s a lot of podcasting conferences sprouting up everywhere. So it’ll be interesting to see what this circuit turns into in the next. 

[00:13:29] Rob: Yeah, I agree. I think for us, the focus on the upcoming conferences is more speaking engagements and, providing actual information.

[00:13:37] I think one thing, we were sharing that we weren’t totally happy with some of the presenters, so practice what we preach. We can, secure speaking spots and actually share information on how to move that needle and what we did. 

[00:13:50] Brittany: Absolutely. Absolutely. We don’t have secrets. 

[00:13:53] Rob: Yeah, we tell you guys all our dirt right 

[00:13:54] here.

[00:13:54] Exactly. Do you have any final thoughts on this? Rob 

[00:13:57] final thought would be, if you’re [00:14:00] in the podcasting space and you’re thinking of going to a conference. Do your research on the conference and who’s attending if possible. one thing that I think did come out of the COVID era is the websites related to conferences have really changed and evolved.

[00:14:14] the conference we just attended, made it possible to do networking through their website in advance. we’ve taken full advantage of that. A couple of years ago, that really wasn’t a thing. You didn’t have any ability to do anything until you were feet on the ground at the conference.

[00:14:28] Rob: So utilize all the resources that they give you before getting there. if you can set up meetings in advance, you’ll make your life that much easier once you actually are at the conference, to maximize your time and your investment because conferences do cost a lot of money.

[00:14:41] Brittany: Yes, absolutely. I think going with a plan is. Important. And I would say consider the time difference three hours is a lot, it’s a huge time difference, especially when I’m going to say this. And everyone’s going to know now that I’m 92 at my core. So I go to bed at eight 30 every night. That’s five 30 on [00:15:00] the,Pacific standard time..

[00:15:01] It was rough to say the least. So I think just taking that into account and the fact that like the jet lag and all of that, it was a little rougher than I had anticipated. I’m like, oh, I can do this. But then I remembered I’m not 20 anymore. So 

[00:15:11] Rob: yeah. I agree. We’re both early bedtime people, but we’re also up at the crack of Dawn.

[00:15:15] Brittany: Yeah. I’m like, 

[00:15:16] can anyone network at five 30? Let’s like, go to coffee, let’s go to the gym together. Let’s do this. 

[00:15:20] Rob: Oh my God. This, yeah. We didn’t even touch on that. That was a nightmare. 

[00:15:23] Yes. It totally was. Here’s the other thing, there was another big conference there and they were a different type of people.

[00:15:29] I don’t think there was a ton of podcasters at the gym. If I’m being real honest with you. I think it was a lot of people. I believe it was a real estate conference, so there’s a lot of people in there. Those people like to be pretty. So they like to work out, but it was very busy and very uncomfortable.

[00:15:42] Very uncomfortable. Yes, it was. 

[00:15:44] Brittany: So anyways, We’re going to wrap here, but thank you so much for tuning in. Please listen, likeand subscribe, and we’ll see you guys next time.

[00:00:00] Rob: Unless you’ve been living under a rock. You have to know by now that we launched PodOps, which is our new mobile app designed to help podcast hosts and guests connect, and it’s all ,over our social media. Today, we thought we would actually share a little bit about the process of bringing it to life and some of the ups downs, maybe some of the bigger downs of actually creating an app and what that looks like.

[00:00:23] So we thought we would start with actually talking about mapping the concept. Which started about a year ago. we’re currently in March, so we’ve been at this for quite a while. And when Brittany and I were together working at the time in Baltimore we got literal giant post-it notes.

[00:00:41] stuck them on the wall, got colored pens and started drawing screens and features. As we were trying to come up with, what would this app do? How would this app look? And again, we were tackling this from the point of view that we had a podcast. We interviewed people and honestly it’s can be a pain in the ass to get guests.

[00:01:00] It can be hard to. Not only find people, but then you get this endless cycle of sending them emails or text messages and people don’t get back to, or they get back to you far later than proposed dates of interviews. And it becomes really difficult to nail it down sometimes. So the idea was to create an app to make this process easy, but also create a community where people are quite literally bringing themselves to the table to say, Hey, I want to be in the pool of guests to be available for this type of content creation.

[00:01:29] Brittany: Yeah, it’s been an interesting experience. I will say mapping everything out was a really fun experience because it allowed us to be creative and it was fun to be like, oh, what about this? What about that? And writing everything down and adding it to the long list of things on the post-it notes.

[00:01:44] they were literally hanging all over the walls. So it was a fun process to go through and just see what two creative minds can come up with 

[00:01:51] Brittany: I think the second portion of us developing the app where we had to really translate it to a developer, I think that it seemed easier than it was at the time. Cause we had put together, mock ups of the screens we had put together all of that before we ever.

[00:02:06] met with a developer and we put it out for RFP, for multiple developers to bid on and, take on the project. And of course we had everyone signed NDAs and all of that, because that is a smart thing to do people. especially when you come up with something that is unique and maybe hasn’t been done before.

[00:02:22] I think. That process seemed easy. That, wasn’t the hard thing. I think once we got with the developers, it seemed like the firm that we had chosen, they were, quick to say, yeah, this is super doable. This is what we can do it for. the beginning of the process was super easy.

[00:02:36] Rob, do you think that it was. As hard as you would’ve thought it would’ve been to pick a firm to help us as well as send the mock-ups over and get the bid back and move forward.

[00:02:46] Rob: I think that we went through it pretty quickly and seamlessly. And I think for those listening, we do web development, so we don’t really do mobile application development.

[00:02:55] So what we were looking for is a firm that could do native mobile app development, meaning they know how to build. Android apps and iOS apps. There is a difference between a native app that is built specifically for the platforms versus the react native type of apps, which are hybrid apps that are designed to work on both types of platforms.

[00:03:15] in my previous agency role, I did have a lot of experience working with developers who built those kinds of apps and yes, they can be great, but honestly, they end up having more problems that seem. when you fix something for one device, it breaks on the other. and so that was one thing for us.

[00:03:31] Rob: It was really important that they were built native for each of the operating systems. I think the historical knowledge we have in the web development space, as well as all of the projects that have led up to this over the last decade and half. Made it a lot easier to select a firm. We knew what to look for.

[00:03:49] We knew the questions to ask. We weren’t really going into this as blindly as other people might be going into it. If they were fresh to the game and to Brittany’s point about the mock-ups, I think  we went a little further than most people would go with an idea where yes, we started with pen and paper, and then we Photoshopped our designs of every single screen.

[00:04:09] So when we met with the development team, We could take them through our entire app. Yes. It was all still images, but we could explain to them, this is how it should look. This is how it should function. And once we pick them, we handed that off not only to to build it, but we then had their design team, take it to the next level.

[00:04:27] Again, we do web development and web design. It is different than mobile. So we did want. They’re mobile designers to really Polish and make that design look great, which I think they really nailed it. And that’s the first phase we went through with the design piece. And I think that went really seamlessly. And then we jumped into the build and it seemed like everything was going pretty smoothly.

[00:04:48] And we were, rolling along towards our December 17th target launch date, and then things, I’d say it’s late October, early November. When we were expecting to see more visible progress. And then it seemed like we were starting to get some excuses and we were starting to get a little bit of a chicken and an egg, where there was always a reason that something wasn’t happening or X had to happen before Y and it sounded logical at the time and we trusted the firm we were working with.

[00:05:20] and we’re still working together. So we still trust them. And then we had to have in early December, what I would call the come to Jesus moment where we, said, Hey, we’re two weeks away from our scheduled completion of the app that we have not seen a finished product what’s going on. And that’s when firm revealed to us that, not only had they not started working on the Android version of our app.

[00:05:45] Rob: They had actually lost some internal developers and had not been able to replace them. So they’d had really one person trying to do this entire enormous project. So they were way behind schedule. So of course that is not what we wanted to hear. We were not very happy with that. and the moral of the story there.

[00:06:05] Honesty would have been a much better practice cause we can’t plan for things that are hidden or not shared with us.

[00:06:12] Brittany: So I would say we were in the honeymoon phase when we presented the app and gave them all of the. Our mock-ups and things like that. And it seems so easy and so quick for them to get us back the quote and all of that. And I think that should have been like a big indicator that maybe they hadn’t fully flushed out the project, looking back on it now, it probably should have been red flag, but I think we were in the honeymoon phase and we’re like, this is going to be awesome.

[00:06:36] This is like going to be so easy. look how smooth this is going already. And. Yeah, by November, I think that there was definitely some big concerns. they keep telling you it’s, it’s all backend work and then we’re just going to connect the front end and then we’ll be able to get you guys an app.

[00:06:50] And it sounded like Rob said logical, but looking back at it, it’s no trust, but verify. Those are the things that you need to do when you’re working with anyone in a partnership, especially when. Deadlines are critical for, things to happen. the marketing, us being able to start getting revenue from the app and things like that.

[00:07:10] we’re super crucial. And for us to be, almost three months late releasing the app, it’s been crazy. So looking for those red flags in the beginning, I think would have helped us. But I think, like I said, we were super excited and in that honeymoon phase of the idea, so I think that would be something that we would do different.

[00:07:26] Rob: Definitely. And I think he’d make a good point. , there is a difference between scope creep and then the developer not fully understanding. So we definitely added some features to the project later on. And that was a change of scope, which we, changed the agreement we paid for, ect. But there are features.

[00:07:46] Currently have not been built for the app because they underestimated the complexity of what needed to be created. And that I will say has at sometimes become a point of contention between at least myself and the firm, because I will hold you to the letter of your contract. So that’s one thing they like to bring up.

[00:08:07] Like they were asking for leniency, but. You would expect us to fulfill our end of the contract. We expect you to do the same. That’s why we have contracts in place. So they have a little bit try to wriggle out of some things, but unfortunately, that’s why we had a contract in place and they can’t get around billing things they don’t want to do.

[00:08:25] And they’re stuck there. 

[00:08:26] Brittany: I will say , one of the big things that we did too, is the mock-ups. So we could go back and say it was in the original scope. So I think that also has helped us, we did a lot of prep work in the beginning, but I think it has paid off.

[00:08:36] I would just say that relationship with the firm and in the beginning, we definitely should have asked for more and to be able to see more in the beginning, for sure. I think I would change that. 

[00:08:46] Rob: I agree. I think the only other major thing I would change with the firms specifically is they don’t really have a true project manager and both Brittany and I have strong backgrounds in project management.

[00:08:58] and that’s one thing that they have tried to use to their advantage where they don’t send out all the follow-up notes to meetings. we have to take very detailed notes because they will try to say they did. Tell you a date or they didn’t say something when they did to the point where sometimes we have to record key meetings because they’ll try to say they did not promise that date or they contradict one another.

[00:09:20] and that’s been problematic thinking more so of the deadline component that Bridie was mentioning a moment ago, we were planning for a December 17th launch. We had that come to Jesus, call it then moved to January 21st, I believe is the Friday, maybe 22nd was then when we were going to live.

[00:09:37] Rob: Now we’re still only talking iOS. They had not started Android at that point. we’re recording this in March. So clearly that date came in with as well. And Brittany also mentioned a moment ago, 90 days overdue. St Patrick’s day was the 90 day mark and yes, the initial iOS app is out on the market and had been for about a week at that point.

[00:09:57] But, it’s still significantly overdue. And when you think of the time and effort that our team is putting into prepping, just the marketing alone, all of that marketing, we were starting in November and then we had, graphics created videos created. Social posts, emails, all of that ready to go timed through December, January, all of that pretty much had to be scrapped and started over for the new January date.

[00:10:23] So then we did it all again, and then that date came and went. So for a second time, all of the marketing was wasted and you’re probably thinking, why can’t you just tweak it and change it? And to a degree you can, but. As you’re going in and changing things, the dates are all wrong. all falls into play.

[00:10:39] Also with certain holidays, there might be language in certain posts that now we can’t use. So those have to pretty much go in the trash can on your computer. So it did get to the point where we were about a week from the March launch date, where we weren’t 100% sure that the development firm was going to actually get this app out the door and improve by Apple.

[00:10:58] And so we just had to sit tight and wait and hope it was going to come out and, pray a little bit before we even did any of the marketing. the marketing started 48 hours before that, , live stream really happened. And the app came out, which was incredibly stressful. 

[00:11:13] Brittany: Yeah. I a hundred percent agree.

[00:11:14] We’re also on a conference circuit. So that’s also been very stressful because we want the app to be what we expect it to be. And we understand that there’s going to be bugs, but at this point in time,there are some things that definitely have to be adjusted in order for us to feel really comfortable with it going out into a professional market of podcasters, because those are our market and.

[00:11:34] Anyone that uses a bad app, knows that you typically do not give them a second try. You’re usually like, yeah, this is crappy. I’m done. So trying to avoid those things as well. It’s been super difficult to navigate this because we planned so many things around this launch and it’s been delayed so much that it has really put a lot of stress on.

[00:11:55] Our ability to execute the way that we’re used to being able to execute. And so when you can’t control things that makes it very difficult, especially when someone else is controlling your destiny, it’s never a good position to be in. And I think that’s caused a lot of sleepless nights and a lot of, I’m going to say it.

[00:12:11] I think I’m aging rapidly at this point. I think that this app has definitely helped that progression. 

[00:12:16] Rob: But I go with you, gray hair and wrinkles, gray hair and wrinkles. 

[00:12:20] Brittany: And the anger, sometimes the anger is just a lot. there’s been a lot of frustration and I will say, it’s been interesting being a female involved in this process too, because I don’t think, they take me as seriously as they take you Rob.

[00:12:33] So that has been a challenge for me and a little bit I don’t feel like I’ve ever felt that before. So I’m just like, what the hell is going on. 

[00:12:40] Rob: It is interesting because it is truly blatant sexism. I don’t think I’ve ever actually seen it. we hear about it and they talk about it on TV, on the news.

[00:12:49] And these movements, I’ve never actually seen it in the workplace until now. And it’s very odd to be in the dynamic where. We’re we’re equal partners. This is our project together. We both signed a contract with this firm yet if they want to talk about money, they will always come to me.

[00:13:05] They will leave you off the email. They’ll leave you off the Skype chat. I will add you back on. They will leave. it’s very strange and I don’t really understand it. And it seems strange that they continue to do it. Yeah. I have no explanation for that other than it’s fucking annoying, but, 

[00:13:22] Brittany: like I said, it’s been an interesting experience because honestly I’ve never felt, I’ve never felt like I’ve been treated differently ever in the workforce.

[00:13:29] Like I’ve been doing this for a long time. a weird thing, especially in a partnership agreement, Very strange. So that was something else that we’ve had to navigate that was unexpected. and it’s been fine, but it’s been an experience that’s for sure.

[00:13:41] And, at this point I just want them to fix things and, that’s it, that’s all I ask of them. 

[00:13:46] Rob: I think the good news is where, with the iOS, we’re so close to being done, our newest version came out, and fix some critical issues. And I think, we’re actually finally getting to that finish line, which is great.

[00:13:57] And the Android version is just around the corner. I think, we’re a week or so away from having that ready to go out, at least for our, the testing phase. And get that out to the market. Android will definitely miss the podcast conferences that we’re heading out to, but I think it’ll be exciting to, take the iOS version out.

[00:14:15] I would say the one thing that kind of disappoints me is, if this app had come out on time we were at the beginning of this market. And there, there are two main competitors that are also out there in this space. And unfortunately, because of all the delays, I feel like they’ve now gotten a leg up on us where I think.

[00:14:33] Rob: We wouldn’t be trailing as far behind at the moment if we had launched on time. Now that is not to say we won’t catch up because we’re scrappy. So nothing’s going to keep us down. now we just have to work that much harder to make sure that we’re getting the word out about the app and, that’s where the marketing is going to come in.

[00:14:51] Loved to do the marketing. It’s exciting to, even seeing the conference materials as they’ve been delivered and yes, there print materials, which feels a little old school. Cause it’s been so long since I’ve actually had to print things for a conference. And it’s been two years since we’ve actually gone to a live in-person conference.

[00:15:06] That’s exciting, but all the printed materials arrived. We’ve got the pop sockets. I literally, I’m surrounded by boxes of stuff at this moment around my feet. you can’t see them off camera. I’m in a pile of crap that is going to be used to spread the word,and get, get people on the app.

[00:15:22] It’s gonna be exciting. 

[00:15:23] Brittany: Yes. So overall a unique experience that we’ve been able to go through, but super glad we did it and pulled the trigger and just move forward because. It’s been really fun to see the vision of what we had come to life, even though it’s been super frustrating along the way.

[00:15:38] I think getting to the finish line is so rewarding. So if you guys have an app idea, go for it because it’s very rare that you find something that is not already been thought of. So finding a niche market is so rare. So go after it, 

[00:15:52] Rob: yeah. If you need some tips and tricks. yeah, reach out to us. We’re happy to , talk about what our experience has been and some of the things that we did. reach out to us, download the app, let us know what you guys think.

[00:16:02] be kind, when you download that, we’re happy to take all feedback, but definitely still looking for some enhancements and things like that. So stay tuned on that. 

[00:16:11] Rob: Yep. And big things to come. There are still two big phases coming. So stay tuned. thanks for tuning in. Please listen, like and follow the podcast and we will see you guys next week.

[00:00:00] Brittany: Rob, I know that this is one of your favorite topics, how to ruin your podcast. We’ve seen so many different things. Over time that we have dealt with it. It’s been like, oh my gosh, how are these people doing this? I’m kind of excited to talk about this. We do like to talk about things not to do. So this is going to be a fun episode.

[00:00:18] Rob: That’s true. I do like to talk about train wrecks. So it’s always entertaining, not just in podcasting and life and all that good stuff, but you know, let’s start with an easy one. We are all guilty of doing this at some point or another. The likes, the ums and lots of silence. Let’s be honest if you’re using the word light to. No offense, but you sound like a dumb valley girl. It is not 1994. We’re not supposed to do that anymore. It’s not cool. It’s not sexy.

[00:00:48] It was fun in the movie clueless, but the nineties are gone. Sadly, the ums, another one, a lot of us do that. We take that moment to think. We say, um, as we’re trying to gather our thoughts. Sometimes it feels unavoidable, but if you’re doing it a ton, it becomes a problem, especially for your producer who has to edit all of those out to make you sound intelligent, because if you’re doing, um, um, um, you sound stupid, let’s be honest.

[00:01:13] And then too much silence. Occasionally, you’re going to have to take a moment to pause, to gather your thoughts, but if you’re not editing out those long pipes, As a listener it’s really boring. And also, it makes you think, did this pause on my phone? Did it freeze? What just happened? And if I have to get my device out and look at it to see if the podcast is still playing, that’s a problem that posits way, way too long.

[00:01:36] Brittany: Yeah. That’s a pet peeve of mine, actually the long pauses. And of course, the likes and ums are as well because I do most of the editing in our little duo here. So. but I will tell you, editing makes you learn how to speak a little bit better because you hear yourself and you’re like, I do not sound like that because I will tell you when we first started our podcast.

[00:01:58] Wow. I couldn’t believe how dumb I sounded, because I was like, like, like, like, no, don’t do it. And learn from listening to your podcasts. I think it will help you become a better speaker. If you are editing all that stuff out, you won’t want to do it every time. So, you’ll learn how to speak a little bit better.

[00:02:14] And then also tell your co-hosts the same thing I was going to say. Also, 

[00:02:17] Rob: if somebody tells you that you do it too much, you’re like, like, like I like do that too much, or you saying I do that too much. So, yes, I’m bad about that. 

[00:02:26] Brittany: And then you send them the raw audio and tell them, you need to listen to this.

[00:02:29] Rob: Yeah, you do that on a Friday with a glass of wine, because you’re going to feel bad about yourself, just for, I 

[00:02:35] Brittany: see. You’re also getting tips along the way. Wine lessons,

[00:02:38] Rob: life lessons. 

[00:02:39] Brittany: Yes. I will say another pet peeve of mine is when I expect a show. There’s a show that I listened to, and the guy’s an entrepreneur love him.

[00:02:48] His shows are incredible. But he gets busy and he’s like, look, I might have five episodes one week and I might have two, one week. And it’s like, no, dude, I need five episodes a week, what are you doing? it drives me crazy. [00:03:00] I still listen to his podcast because the content is so good, but he’s a rarity.

[00:03:04] I usually don’t give people that opportunity. So, make sure that you’re not taking unannounced. Hiatuses because your audience will not stick

[00:03:13] Rob: I think that’s fair. And I think you make a really good point that he is really rare. I don’t think most of us would stick around. I think we’d probably get a little bit bored and maybe even forget about the podcast and possibly rediscover it way later on and then catch up on it. But I could see how that would get frustrating. 

[00:03:31] Brittany: It totally is, but I love what he says about stuff and he’s an aggressive human, which is totally my style. So, get, he gets me pumped up in the morning. Sunlight. Every time he has an episode. 

[00:03:40] Rob: He’s your morning coffee. I just need a lot of caffeine

[00:03:44] Brittany: So true. 

[00:03:45] Rob: So, one thing that really bothers me and a lot of people do this. It’s a defense mechanism and it’s self-deprecating comments. So, talking badly about yourself or your own podcast, especially in front of a guest, The self-deprecating comments, you might be trying to make a joke, maybe your nervous.

[00:04:03] So you want to make yourself comfortable on the guests comfortable, but it generally comes off looking bad also to the listener and tuning into your show to listen to you and what you’re having to say. Why do I want to listen to somebody who’s literally talking badly about themselves? Really not what I’m interested in.

[00:04:22] So do think about those things. And if you do it, you know, maybe cut it out, unless it truly has some purpose of being in the show. I mean, we’ve done an episode where we talked about our failures and some of those had some self-deprecating comments in, but they actually were a part of the stories we were sharing.

[00:04:40] So that was very different. Where in general, we’re not talking about, oh my God, I hate our show. Oh, we sounded so bad. If we’re saying it there’s an intention behind it.

[00:04:50] Brittany: Well, I also think there’s a difference in talking bad about yourself and then sharing lessons that you’ve learned. I think that we all make mistakes and we all try to figure things out and navigate things. So, I think those are two different things as well. Just side note.

[00:05:01] Rob: Definitely. 

[00:05:03] Brittany: One thing that has been interesting to me working with clients that maybe I jumped in on their podcast, cause they’ve gotten overwhelmed or they’re like, oh my gosh, this thing happened. I don’t know how to deal with it. And that’s kind of when we jump in and take over one of the things that I’m like, why, why did you do this?

[00:05:19] They take music and they utilize it, but they don’t look at what the copyright is on the music. So guess what guys? You can’t just use whatever music. There are copyright infringement laws. So, making sure that you have music that you are able to access either you purchased it, if it’s a creative commons, Music then you are allowed to use it.

[00:05:40] If you go to sound Stripe, all those types of services, you can get music, you might have to pay for it. Some of it’s free, but just know what you’re utilizing, because it can also put your podcasts at risk. It can be flagged and it can be taken down. So, keep that in. 

[00:05:54] Rob: And have we’ve purchased the music that we use for our intros and outros. And I will say, as you, cultivate the selection that we kind of work through, I think it’s actually a little bit entertaining to listen to some of the different stuff. So, it can actually be a fun process to find the music you’re going to use.

[00:06:08] Brittany: Yes. I think music really sets the tone for your podcast. and. There are different tons of music for different types of podcasts. So like health industry, there’s a certain vibe that you get at versus like an entrepreneur or maybe even a political podcast. So, I do like choosing music. I think it’s fun. I like giving the client options. Cause I think it’s also probably stuff that maybe they wouldn’t have chosen, but they fall in love with so kind of exciting stuff to be able to do that.

[00:06:35] Rob: And on the complete opposite side of that, The boring stuff. If you have a guest on your show and maybe they ramble through a story, that’s not the most entertaining, or even your telling a story that once you listen to it in production, you realize, God, this is boring. Cut it out. Why leave it in? You know, don’t leave it in just to fill minutes. 

[00:06:55] Brittany: Yeah. That’s how you lose audiences. I think making sure that you have great content and sometimes that is cutting out 20 minutes of a podcast. I think people also need to remember that with a podcast you’re only getting the audio. So the visual portion is not available. So making sure that whatever content you’re creating audio only is super entertaining and super relevant . 

[00:07:18] Rob: Yeah, I think that’s a great point. I mean, we were a great example. We don’t utilize the video component necessarily for our podcast, I guess we could, but right now it’d be a great example of why we wouldn’t because my house was flooded.

[00:07:30] So there’s a nightmare in the background that nobody needs to see. Although actually people would probably love to see it. It looks like I live in an episode of hoarders, but I don’t want people to see that at the moment. We’d have to green screen it, but you know, if we were using it, the video content would be much more entertaining. But once you strip that video off, it doesn’t have the same weight or own that you get from just the audio, 

[00:07:52] Brittany: Correct. A hundred percent. So, I think another thing going along with that is if there are conversations that don’t contribute to what you’re talking about and you guys get on a tangent and it doesn’t make sense, take it out also.

[00:08:07] We’ve had a client make dirty jokes and podcasts, and then ask me to edit them out. So, I mean, for editing sake, just be aware and don’t say stuff that you don’t want in your podcast to begin with conversations tend to happen, and that’s fine, but I will say it makes editing a lot harder when you have to sit and take pieces out or, you know, even listening to something that’s really boring is not that fun. So, making sure that if you’re editing your own podcast or you have someone editing it for you, save them the headache. 

[00:08:39] Rob: I’d say also read the room, especially if you’re a guest on somebody else’s podcast. and I’m thinking too, maybe a year or so back. We had a guest on our show who made a lot of off-color comments and we’re definitely comfortable with colorful language.

[00:08:53] However, there is probably a limit with the number of F-bombs you might want to be dropping so you might want to, you know, be considerate of what show you’re on, or even if it’s your podcast, who your audience is. , not to say everybody is ultra conservative, but even the most liberal person might not want to start their day with an ear full of, you know, F-bombs and other curse words.

[00:09:18] So, you know, do think about the language or if you’re a guest. Do you consider what you’re saying? Because if you didn’t sign an agreement where you get the right to sign off on the episode, you might have said something you regret later that they then publish and you can’t do anything about it,

[00:09:32] Brittany: correct. A hundred percent.

[00:09:34] Rob: And on that topic, that kind of goes into personal stories. So, I think we all share personal stories. However, there are some podcast shows. They start out with stories or banter almost like it’s a talk show and that’s really not what I’m tuning in for. It’s not the topic of the episode. I don’t really care about their band turn necessarily, maybe a little bit, but if it goes on for too long, a 15 minute podcast should not have eight minutes of personal banter to get to the point.

[00:10:03] So, you know, keep it short. Don’t have too many personal stories. Don’t let them overtake your emphasis. 

[00:10:08] Brittany: Yeah. And I would also say, especially if you’re doing guests on your podcasts, don’t take over. People are there to listen to your interviews, not , for you to override your guests story. you know what I mean? 

[00:10:18] Rob: Yeah. I think that’s, a very valid point 

[00:10:21] Brittany: and that kind of goes along with forgetting the why of your podcast. if you’re there to interview people don’t make it about. Also, kind of makes you look like a jerk, honestly. 

[00:10:29] Rob: Yeah. You’ve got to share your spotlight if you’re going to bring somebody on.

[00:10:32] Brittany: Absolutely. And if you feel like you need to show to yourself, then do one by yourself and say, Hey, this episode is just me taking a break from interviews and setting the expectation with your audience.

[00:10:43] Rob: Definitely. And I think to a degree, you know, we’ve done a little bit of why evolution with our own podcasts.

[00:10:50] We have really two branches of it. We have one that’s, , Brittany and I, where we’re very focused on what’s going on in our small business space. Some of the problems we face deal with and how we’ve gone through those. And then we have our entrepreneur interviews and they all fit under the umbrella of our podcasts, but they’re really two different sets of content that we can feed to our audience.

[00:11:10] Brittany: Yes. So, people that like the interviews they tuned into. People that just want to hear kind of our discussions, they tune into those and some like both. So, it’s a win-win win for us. I think we’ve given you guys a lot to think about, so we’re going to wrap here for the day, but thanks so much for tuning in. And if you liked this episode, remember to listen like, and subscribe and share this episode with your.

[00:11:33] And we’ll see you guys next week.

[00:00:00] Rob: Interviews can be a really great way to grow the content of your podcast. We’ve done a lot of them and they’ve been something that’s really helped us in a number of venues with our own business and even exploring ways to really reinvent portions of our podcasts. So what we wanted to share today are some important things you can do to actually host a successful.

[00:00:21] Knowing that when we started out, we were maybe a little fumbling, cause we didn’t know exactly what we were doing. So we had to learn along the way and , maybe we can save you some time and some stress. One of the first things that we can point out to you is researching your guest. This seems like it should be a no-brainer.

[00:00:38] but a lot of people go into an interview not really knowing a lot about their guests. Most people you’re interviewing. There’s probably a good bit of information about them on the. Whether that’s their website or social media, and this would be one place where being a social media stalker. Totally.

[00:00:54] Okay. It’s not creepy at all. This is not a dating website. Go to town. But think of it, if your guest is. Read their latest book. It’s going to be something they want to talk about, Google them. Are there articles that they’ve written or have people publish something about them? Anything that you can digest to know more about them so that you can speak intelligently to and about your guests and be more prepared from the get-go.

[00:01:19] Brittany: I think that that is one of the most important things that we do is researching the guest and something else. When you are researching the guests, pick out like some interesting tidbit that maybe you discover. I think one of our favorite ones was someone that had actually been involved in an altercation and they ended up moving their business.

[00:01:38] And so we were able to ask about that and it actually ended up being a really interesting conversation. Based off that little tiny news article that we were able to find. So just focusing on those little things that make things interesting. And I think another thing that we’ve done really well is we write our guests bio for them.

[00:01:55] And I think because we do that, we’re able to also pull more details, [00:02:00] more information because that’s how much research we do in order to have someone on our side.

[00:02:04] Rob: Definitely. And a lot of people, you know, these days they’re starting to do podcasts tours. It’s, you know, really starting to become the norm, especially if they’re promoting a business or a product or a service. A lot of them, if they’re writing their own bio, they’ve sent the same thing on every other show.

[00:02:20] if you’re not the first person se interview them and your audience happens to be shared by another podcast, which they most likely. And they have heard this guest before. They’re going to hear the same thing. So it’s a way to ensure that your content or your episode is fresh. And that’s actually somewhere where you can think about, focusing on where your show and your guests intersect.

[00:02:39] So think about the topic of your show. What’s your. And what your guest is bringing to it. What’s the value that together you can add. And that’s how you’re going to focus your questions and drive the show forward and create quality content. If we were bringing on an entrepreneur, what is their business?

[00:02:58] Now we are, in the marketing space where podcasters, we do development. we have a pretty big area to drop off. And then when we’ve met entrepreneurs in our own cities, we’re talking to bar owners, gym owners. 

[00:03:12] Brittany: We’re talking to people that are creatives. I think we’ve talked to a lot of creatives that have art studios or are building an online business, which has been super cool. And being able to talk to those people and really dig into their industry. I think that’s been really fun and interesting. As entrepreneurs that’s what our podcast is.

[00:03:31] That’s what season one and season two really were about where the entrepreneurs and with that, we were able to dig into different verticals. And I think that that’s interesting to entrepreneurs because they’re always looking for their next thing. So being able to talk to people about, I think it was , super interesting.

[00:03:46] Rob: Definitely. I agree. And it was interesting as we dug into those conversations with people, we didn’t realize how similar in some areas we were and then how different, you know, each entrepreneur, they got into their business in a different way, but a lot of [00:04:00] us share the same struggles. And so from that came to Brittany’s point earlier, a lot of interesting stories, whether we found them online beforehand or not.

[00:04:08] There’s a lot of content that comes from discussing with the entrepreneurs, how they got started, where their business idea came from and whether our businesses are similar or different. A lot of those generate really interesting tidbits for your soundbites that draw your audience in. those are things that we then repurpose.

[00:04:26] They become kind of those social media hooks that we use to then kind of engage our audience. But it really comes from knowing who our guests is. And then starting to prep our questions of what we’re going to dive into before we even meet with the person.

[00:04:41] Brittany: I also think how you ask the question is actually really important because you want to have the person actually give you more information.

[00:04:48] So asking how and why questions. And I also think don’t be so set on the questions that you’re asking that you can’t be spontaneous and dig into other things that they might say, because you don’t know exactly what someone’s going to say.. So making sure that you’re open to asking different questions, because there might be like eight questions that you have on your list that you don’t even get to because something else came out that was really interesting that you’ve dug into.

[00:05:13] Rob: I think you make a really good point there. So one thing, and this, I don’t think this is unique to you and I, but because we record from two different locations when we meet with a guest, they’re generally in a third location. So we use technology to our advantage. We will have, teams chat or something off to the side.

[00:05:33] We can be conversing without the guests actually being aware of it. So that if the guest answers a question we were about to ask, or we want to, change how we’re lining up our questions. Cause we, you know, we have a list of questions prepped to go, and there’s not necessarily an exact order, but we might realize based on a story they told, oh, we need to now ask this sooner.

[00:05:54] It was going to be later in the interview . You know, using technology to our advantage, that really helps. And if we want to dig deeper into something or, you know, a great example of something happens and it’s like, oh, Hey, my dog is barking. I can’t ask my next question. You can also use that to be like, Hey, can you ask the next question, keep going.

[00:06:11] So you don’t have to interrupt them. 

[00:06:12] Brittany: Yeah, I think that those are good points and I think being present, I think that that’s another thing. If you’re present in the moment, you can have a really engaged in conversation, but if you’re distracted, it’s really hard to continue having a conversation that flows.

[00:06:25] If you’re just focused on the questions that you’re asking and you’re not digging into things that’s kind of boring. So make sure that you’re present and that you’ve set aside the time and that no one’s bothering you. You don’t have kids. You don’t have your. And that you’re actually really paying attention to that person because number one, they’re taking time out of their day, which most people that are doing interviews, , their time is probably very valuable.

[00:06:45] So giving them the attention that they deserve and also the attention that your podcast deserves because. The more engaging your interview is the more your listeners are going to appreciate it. And the more they’re going to share it, and the more they’re going to follow you and listen to your podcast.

[00:06:59] So I think that those are just a couple of little tidbits on that little topic. So I think prepping in questions in advance is something that you and I have gotten really good at. And I think. One of the things that we learned early on was not asking the basic questions, the ones that, you know, everyone asks and trying to make it more interesting, which we kind of already covered.

[00:07:22] But I think when you’re prepping your questions, try to focus on things that are going to be different and maybe address some of the things upfront that you don’t need to ask them. So when you introduce them, obviously you’re like, Hey, this person does this. This is their background, and then you move on.

[00:07:37] You don’t need to ask those questions. So make it more interesting and diverse by doing that and the open-ended questions. , don’t force your guests to answer something in a way that makes it seem leading. I think that that’s like a little bit dishonest or a little bit, you know, an authentic. So I think that that’s super important to really focus on.

[00:07:57] And try to only ask one question at a time, otherwise your guests can get overwhelmed and maybe skip parts of the questions that might be really, really important and really valuable content. So that’s one thing that I think we also learned early on. And then, you know, don’t say, and for my next question, it looks like I have five more to go, like don’t do that.

[00:08:17] That is awful. And, it’s just bad form. Let’s be honest.

[00:08:20] Rob: I mean, I’ll admit those last two. I’m definitely guilty of, cause I’ll be like, I have these really good questions and I’ll string them together. I’ll be like, can you answer this and this? And I’ll just smash them together. And sometimes you’ll see the guest in the camera or in person that look of confusion in their eyes where they’re trying to process, what did you just ask me?

[00:08:38] How do I answer this? And you kind of get a garbled answer and then they’ll say, And what was your question? Cause now they’ve lost the full train of thought. So, yeah, I agree. Don’t do that. And if you’re, like me and you do do that, maybe practice a little more and you know, do look at your list of questions for reference a little more often, but as Brittany said, , don’t mention that’s what you’re doing.

[00:08:59] And  then very important is to prep your guest. This means, depending on what your setting is. And I’m assuming you’re probably virtual for the most part or at a distance from your guests, have a one sheet or ready for them. So this means you’re sending them a document that gives them the highlights of this is the tool or the software we’re going to be using to connect.

[00:09:20] It’ll tell them if they need to download that anything, how they’re going to download. So think of zoom. We’re all pretty familiar with that. Most people have it already, but don’t assume they have it. So be very clear on how they would get it if they need to download it. If there are any time restraints or restrictions shared that with them, talk about things like the settings.

[00:09:41] So Britney mentioned earlier, distracted. You want to be in a quiet space? You don’t want a television in the background. No kids, no pets, no family, friends. You need silence for the most part. Ideally, if you had, you know, a soundproof room, that’d be great. We don’t all have that. We’re mostly in home offices or bedrooms.

[00:09:58] So, you know, do the best you can. And a strong, strong internet connection is very important. And I think Brittany and I have also learned the hard way that not explaining that to somebody can be a real problem for.

[00:10:12] Brittany: I will say the one interview that really comes to mind is we have 30 minutes of this interview and was such a good interview.

[00:10:18] Went back, listened to the audio. And I was like, oh goodness. I think it ended up being like maybe a 12 minute podcast. By the time I was done trying to piece it together because it was so. it was so bad and it was like every other word you can hear. I mean, it was just probably one of the worst editing experiences I’ve had too.

[00:10:34] So keep that in mind, as you prep your guests, the more you prep them, the better off you’re going to be. And the cleaner the audio will be. So I think that’s super important to remember because editing is definitely very time-consuming. So don’t make your life harder, prep your guests and make sure that they understand what you need from them in order to have.

[00:10:52] Good content and for it to be quality,

[00:10:54] Rob: and this may not be a popular comment that I’m about to make, but this is something we’ve had to do in the past where we actually had a guest that we were on the lines, do the interview and they ran a store and they didn’t really understand the concept that they needed to be in a quiet space.

[00:11:10] Well, they were going to do the interview with us during store hours while they were the only one working. We could hear music, you know, blasting in the background. They kept walking away from the computer to help guess in their store and, you know, coming back to us and cutting us off. And we’re, we’re trying to explain to them, we cannot do an interview in this space.

[00:11:30] And so we did get to the point where it’s, you have to call it quits and cancel and reschedule. And we know that’s never the goal with the guests, but there is a point where the guest has to understand. You can’t edit certain things out of the background. Like there’s no way to make that sound good. And that’s obviously an extreme example, but you gotta be realistic with what you’re working with.

[00:11:52] Brittany: Well, I’m going back to my previous point. Your guest also has to give the same sort of attention to the interview to have quality, good engaging content. If they’re all over the. I mean, you can hear it in the audio. It sounds terrible. And it’s very disengaging to listeners because when you don’t have the visual component, it’s definitely more recognizable.

[00:12:12] So I think that that’s something to keep in mind as well.

[00:12:17] Rob: So Brittany since you are really the production side of the house and you get to do well, you have to do cause I don’t do it all the editing. What is really the one takeaway you would give to somebody if they were starting a podcast and they’re planning an interview with somebody that might help them out.

[00:12:34] Brittany: I think setting expectations upfront and making sure that they know how to use the equipment or whatever tool you’re using. And then they understand the importance of, you know, the space that they’re in, especially , I will say even like an echo-y room is super difficult to get the audio to really sound great.

[00:12:51] And what happens is, is when you do condense the audio down and you get rid of the echo, it kind of makes the voice a little slower. It’s kind of an interesting, weird thing that happens, but so I think there’s making sure that they understand, like they need to be in a real, good space for recording and that, you know, internet connection is so important.

[00:13:10] I cannot stress that enough, but I think when you set expectations up front, there’s no surprises. So, if they don’t have a good internet connection, or they’re not in a space where you can record, the expectations are then set. And I feel like that makes it easier to have that conversation of, you know, we’re not in a good place today to record.

[00:13:26] And these are the reasons why. Is there another time in another location that we could utilize in order to move this interview forward?

[00:13:33] Rob: I think that’s great advice. And I think the only thing I would add on there, since we are talking about hosting and successful interview, you’re the host be prepared, do your homework and also rehearse a little well, if you have a great memory, memorize your questions, I don’t have a great memory.

[00:13:47] I need my notes. Go over your notes in advance. Make sure you’re ready to go. Don’t show up to your interview and do a half ass job. It’ll show the recording 

[00:13:56] Brittany: and that’s not how you get listeners for the record. 

[00:13:59] Rob: Touche’ 

[00:13:59] Brittany: All right. Well, thanks so much for tuning in. Please listen, like and follow the podcast and we’ll see you guys next.

[00:00:00] Rob: So you have the it’s just start a podcast. That’s all great and exciting, but there are some things you’ve got to do before you sit down to record or do anything. And the very first thing. Is, you need to have a topic which really relates to the why of your podcast. Why are you starting a podcast? What is it going to be about what is going to differentiate you from the hundreds or potentially even thousands of other podcasts out there for Brittany and myself, we have an entrepreneur podcast where we talk to other small business owners.

[00:00:30] We try to understand some of the obstacles and challenges that they face in their day-to-day business. We talk about why they started their business. and in general we kind of just go back and forth and really, you know, share battle wounds and stories about small business. It’s kind of fun. Exciting it brings up some good stories. So that’s really your starting point. Why are you starting a podcast? 

[00:00:50] Brittany: Yeah. And I would say I’m not know that making sure that you niche down because that’s, what’s going to get you an audience that is built in and that’s loyal. I met a guy which was super interesting. He is doing a podcast show on leadership, but he does it through the lens of Star Trek.

[00:01:08] So he watches an episode of Star Trek, and then he works through the leadership, module, if you will, and picks out little key points of like, this is this type of leadership and walks through it that way. So he’s been able to create his podcast based off of that. And he is actually going to be able to do podcasting and speaking engagements.

[00:01:27] Full-time by, I think, Q3 of this year. So niching down is super, super important because you will find an audience that is loyal and it will also help you branch out into other things.

[00:01:37] Rob: I also really want to know if this person is a Trekkie, cause it seems like he might be combining two passions, his love of star Trek and bringing that into podcasting, which, Hey, if you love what you do, it makes it even better.

[00:01:49] Brittany: Yes. And he’s actually out of Portland and he has the star Trek theme, in his background. So he doesn’t even need like a background made for him. It’s literally in his room. 

[00:01:57] Rob: Alright. I’m highly intrigued. So we’re going to talk more about that offline, but let’s jump into production. So we’re going to assume that you’ve got your topic.

[00:02:07] You know, what you want to talk to people about. But really the biggest piece after that is understanding your production timeline. So you have to have a schedule. And this is where we see a lot of podcasts, either fail or go off the rails because people don’t understand how much time really goes into this process.

[00:02:24] So the easiest piece is generally setting your data record. So whether that’s a weekly or bi-weekly day, we’ll just say it’s Mondays. But then the next piece, and Brittany, I’ll ask you to really talk to this. Knowing when, or how long it’s going to take you to edit and produce your episodes.

[00:02:43] Brittany: Yeah, I think that this is extremely important to really dive into, because you’re going to want to plan accordingly whether you’re recording a 20 minute podcast or a 60 minute podcasts, the time investment is definitely different.

[00:02:56] And if you had a good recording day and things were clear and the sound was good, or if you had a baby crying in the background that day or a dog barking, it does, contribute to how long it’s going to take you to edit an episode. And. I think it’s really important to decide what day you’re going to record, but also come up with your process of how you edit for me.

[00:03:16] I do like to edit all in one day I take a rest because listening to someone’s voice for a really long time, you tend to miss things. So I will come back the next day and just finalize the episode. Typically there’s a couple of tweaks after make, but for the most part, the episode sounds good and I’ll release it,, or get it scheduled.

[00:03:31] Rob: And I always know when Brittany has just come off a long period of editing our episodes because she really doesn’t want to hear my voice anymore because you can only listen to it on repeat so many times. 

[00:03:41] Brittany: Well, not only that, I don’t even want to listen to myself anymore. It’s like, please no more of my voice. Totally understand.

[00:03:47] Rob: So there is little factoid that’s floating around on the web as a standard for editing, assuming the quality of the sound is decent and it’s the rule of four. So if you have a 20 minute episode, it suggests that it’s going to take you 80 minutes or four times the length of the episode to actually edit it down and get it ready to go to air. Would you say that is in general about true, assuming the sound quality isn’t terrible or there’s tons of problematic things in the background. 

[00:04:15] Brittany: Yes. And I will say it depends on how much of a perfectionist you are too. For me, I am a perfectionist. So, I take out probably a little bit more than other people.

[00:04:25] Would, some people go with the raw audio, which is good for them. I don’t feel like I’m good enough speaker for that to happen. But you know, a lot of people actually will edit their audio and make it super, super clean and they won’t edit the video. And they’ll put the video out on YouTube because it’s less distracting.

[00:04:42] when Mistakes to be made because you have the video to look at where with a podcast, when you’re just listening, the audio really does need to be on point 

[00:04:49] Rob: And that’s actually a really good segue. So if we’re more forgiving of the visual, something that’s very important to your podcast is your cover art.

[00:04:58] And no matter what anybody tells you, we all still judge a book by a cover or a podcast by a cover. And you need great cover art. I’ve seen a lot of stuff out there. There seems to be this Renaissance of covers that, if you’re our age or maybe a little older, you remember what MTV looks like in the eighties where it had this kind of acid, you know, mentally crazy.

[00:05:19] Look and feel lots of podcast covers coming out that look like that. They look really amateurish. They’re very cartoony. For myself, they’re huge turnoff. They don’t look polished. They don’t look professional. , I’m probably being a little biased because we are more in the business and entrepreneur space.

[00:05:33] We’re not so much in the entertainment space. However, even if I were looking for, you know, a true crime or something to entertain me, I would steer away from those. So it is really important to think about your cover and what’s going to resonate with your audience. There are lots of tools out there to help you build cover art.

[00:05:52] If you’re not a Photoshop pro, you know, you can also reach out to us. We’re happy to help you with that. thepodops.com or you can really find resources online, depending on how deep you want to go into creating something by yourself and think about creating something that’s evergreen. So, one thing we did when we first started our podcast in 2020, we had covers that changed per episode.

[00:06:15] It wasn’t a ton of work because it was just one component that changed. However, over time it did create less of a cohesive brand image. So we did retool that in 2021, we came up with something that’s very highly tied to our brand as a company. And that clearly states exactly what our podcast is about. 

[00:06:35] Brittany: On the podcast are I think, just making sure that it fits in within your niche too, because, when you look at the entrepreneurial space, a lot of it is more of the clean either just words on the cover or it’s the person and a title.

[00:06:50] And it’s a nice photo of someone it’s not just like some random, Instagram picture that you put on there. So it’s usually professionally done. Probably a good idea. So making sure that your niche, whatever your podcast is about matches really with your cover art and whether it needs to be more professional, or if you can have more fun with it, I’m with you.

[00:07:09] Don’t really love the cartoony art work that’s coming out. Usually. Big turnoff for me as well. It doesn’t really look interesting, I guess. So, depending on what kind of podcast you’re looking for, just making sure that you are keeping your art within your niche, that would have American foundation on that.

[00:07:27] And then, Rob is really good at this. So I’m going to let him kind of cover the creation of the promotional posts that he’s kind of the marketing guru out of the two of us. He’s done a really good job with our podcast, as well as, some of our clients podcasts. 

[00:07:38] Rob: And this first post that you put out, definitely utilize your, your cover art.

[00:07:42] That’s why you created it. You need to get it in front of people. They don’t know who you are yet. You’re probably like most of us where you’re starting from the ground floor and you’ve got to build yourself up. But as you go along, you need to have sound bites or little visual. Clips from your podcast, whether it’s the cover with a sound wave over [00:08:00] it, or just some sort of artistic image that you can pull to represent the episode with a great blurb to then drive people back to wherever you want them to listen.

[00:08:09] And one thing I will say, when you are posting to social media about your podcast, wherever you’re directing people, maybe you are focused on apple or the Google play area. think about where you’re pushing people. We push people to our website cause we embed the player. However, we always use the line to listen wherever you enjoy podcasts.

[00:08:30] We actually had somebody point out, they didn’t understand the 30 second soundbites we put online. We’re not the whole podcast. So that was kind of eye-opening for us because we thought it was very clear that you needed to click the. Go to the website or go to apple, go to Google, go to Pandora, Amazon, wherever it’s actually listened to the full episode of 15 to 20 minutes.

[00:08:53] Don’t assume people know that it sounds like they should, but they don’t always know that. So you might have people confused with your soundbite but we actually direct them to our website because it also gives you the opportunity for them to explore other episodes. As well as if you are like us, we write blogs that either correlate to our podcasts or are similar in some way, and you can get people to have multi touch points.

[00:09:19] So it’s another way to engage with them and keep them coming back to the site. But it becomes a cycle of you release an episode, you push out your social posts, they come to your site. You need to have additional content there, ready to go to keep them engaged.

[00:09:33] Brittany: and we all know that people, they want the information readily available. So making sure that you have a link is so, so important, otherwise people they’ll just skip over it, but if you make things easy for people, they will click on things. So that’s human nature and unfortunately where we’re at. So making it easy for access is super, super important.

[00:09:51] Rob: And test your link before you post it. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve clicked on somebody’s link and it doesn’t work, or it goes to a dead web page. That’s how you lose audience members. People are not that forgiving when you screw up like that. Especially if you’re new to the game, it’s more of a one and done deal. Test your links. 

[00:10:10] Brittany: Yeah, I do think that that’s really important. And you would think that that would be common sense, but sometimes. I get it. We get in a hurry and we forget to go back and look at those. So 

[00:10:17] Rob: yeah, sometimes common sense does not apply to the internet. So lets just be honest. 

[00:10:23] Brittany: Very, very true.

[00:10:25] The other thing I would say is that people need to be patient with audience growth for podcasting because it doesn’t happen overnight. So you’ve got to look at the long game and you have to be consistent if you’re not consistent, you’re going to have a really hard time growing an audience because typically people only have room in their lives for seven podcasts a week.

[00:10:45] That’s where it’s at. So if you can make top seven you’re in good shape, but if you’re not releasing consistently or you don’t let your listeners know what to expect, it’s really hard to keep your audience engaged. So make sure that you are, even if you’re posting once a month, make sure it is once a month when you’re releasing episodes.

[00:11:03] But if you commit to doing every week, make sure they go out every week on the day, you say they’re going to go out and make sure your marketing.

[00:11:10] Rob: I completely agree. And the way I would compare that, think of your favorite network television show, assuming you still watch regular TV and you’re not just bingeing on the internet.

[00:11:19] I’m a Grey’s anatomy person. I think I’m the one person still watching that show. If it says it’s coming out on Thursday and it didn’t come out on Thursday, I’m pissed. So think about that, about your audience to Brittany’s point. If you say it’s coming out on Thursday, you better release on Thursday or let them know in advance.

[00:11:34] Hey, we’re taking two weeks off or we’re taking a month off. People are forgiving. If they know what to expect,

[00:11:39] Brittany: the only time people are upset is when they’re surprised. So there’s that.

[00:11:43] And I think also don’t expect to be Joe Rogan. He’s the number one podcast or in the world. He gets 11 million people to listen to his three hour show, every single episode that is not realistic. So just make sure you’re, you know, setting goals that make sense for you.

[00:12:00] And you’re not going to do this overnight again. It does take time. 

[00:12:03] Rob: That’s fair. Most of us didn’t have a TV show before we had a podcast. So unless you did and successful comedy career, there’s a different avenue to go there. But if he’s listening, he’s welcome to give us a plug and we would love some of his traffic.

[00:12:16] Brittany: Absolutely. What’s up Joe Rogan.

[00:12:19] Rob: All right. So I think we hit all the basics. Brit, what would be your one takeaway? If you were going to give somebody a piece of advice, you’re starting a podcast. This is your must do when it comes to production, 

[00:12:30] Brittany: make sure that you are in a space that creates clean audio. If not your editing time will go up significantly and you may quit.

[00:12:40] I’m just saying editing is no joke. So make sure that you are committing the time to it. You’re setting yourself up for success by making sure you have a good mic it doesn’t have to be a $400 mic. You can get a reasonably priced mic that will give you some good quality audio.

[00:12:55] And then just making sure that you are, I mean, there’s so many free tools you can use to edit. So just making sure you are learning how to use those tools and maximize so that it makes your life a lot easier. What about you, Rob?

[00:13:08] Rob: And mine will come more from the scheduling of your social posts. So especially if you’re a one person team, it can be a lot of. As you get out ahead of your episodes being recorded, do yourself a favor and sign up for one of the tools, maybe like hoot suite. There are a bunch of others that are cheaper or even free schedule your posts out several weeks in advance.

[00:13:29] As you get your episodes produced and ready to go. It just takes a lot of pressure and stress off your plate. And then as they push out to your different social networks, all you really have to do is reshare them to friends, family tag people. It’s a huge time saver. And it also helps you focus more so on your episodes versus having to get content out same day and being in that panic mode.

[00:13:50] Brittany: I think that’s great advice. So I think we’ve given you guys a lot to think about, and we’re going to wrap it here. So thank you so much for tuning in. And if you like this episode, remember to share it with your friends and listen like and subscribe, and we will see you guys next week.